protection training

[Guest Anonymous]

I have an 8 week old Presa Canario and I am currently researching the various styles of protection training that are available. He is currently in puppy preschool (manners class) and will have to progress through basic and advanced obedience before any protection training can start.

I had him evaluated by a Schutzhund trainer and she said that he was probably the best candidate for protection work that she can remember. He has VERY solid nerves for such a young puppy.

I asked the trainer about other forms of protection work. She mentioned the names of several, but advised me to research the differences through other sources because she is obviously a little biased and others may know more about the other forms of training.

What are the pros and cons of schutzhund, psa, and other types of protection training? I am not interested in competition, but I would like my dog to be well versed in many different situations.

Thanks,
Joseph

[drjeffrock]

Be careful is all I can say. It takes a certain dog to be able to do protection work. I always thought that Presa's were leery of strangers to begin with. Akitas are somewhat similar in a sense that they usually dont start fawning over your guests. I have seen some people try to do schutzhund with their Akitas only to have disastrous results.
Aside from that, schutzhund can be an excellent way to train, provided the dog is of great temperament. Good luck.

[imported_Kat]

As jeff said i would also advise you to be very cautious. Why not do obedience or trialling with your dog instead? Schutzhund is a very fne art form and I am personally very surprised that a trainer of Sch. would even allow a large dog like a Presa to be trained. think about that 200 lbs of weight latching onto you when he is an adult?!

[Guest Anonymous]

Extensive OB is a prerequisite--in my mind at least--to any kind of protectoin training. I am still a year or so away from starting any kind of protection work--maybe more--so I am just researching the various types.

Dogs that are properly trained for protection are more stable and less likely to respond to a non-threat than are dogs who are not trained for protection. I pose this question, "Why would you want a dog with a protective nature if you do not plan to harness and train the dog as to the acceptable use of his innate nature?"

He will weigh about 150 when he is full grown. Presas do not get quite that big. He is from a larger line of presas and will not weigh 200. Why do you think that large dogs should not be protection trained? It makes sense to me. Would you want a 30 pound dog as your means of protection? I want him to be properly trained and completely controlled with that idea in mind. That much dog coming at you is a deterrent to say the least.

I guess that some presas may be leery of strangers, but he is not. He does not have a nervous bone in his body and will approach each and every stranger eagerly.

[ObedienceGrrl]

[quote name='jweissg']
I pose this question, "Why would you want a dog with a protective nature if you do not plan to harness and train the dog as to the acceptable use of his innate nature?"[/quote]

A lot of people do not get a dog of 'protective nature' just so they can have a dog do bite work.

I, like many other owners, just love the breed.

[Guest Anonymous]

I agree with what you, OBgirl. I should clarify.

My dog is first and foremost my friend and my companion. I do not need to be protected (I hope). I plan to train for several reasons.

I think that dogs that are actively and continually challenged by training or a "job" of some sort are happier dogs. Protection training NEVER ends, so there is always a challenge.

Would you not agree though, that a dog who is innately protective is safer and more predictable when he has been trained to understand what a threat is and trained to respond to compands initiating and ceasing any protective action? What if I owned a rottweiler who, while protecting me or my family, bit someone and I had no ability to call the out (cease the protection) and the dog had no sense of when the threat had been overcome?

I think that is a much more dangerous situation!

Joseph

[imported_Matty]

jweissg, very interesting post. I don't know much about protection training and nil about schutzhund training. But, you sound like you know what your doing and what you said about calling your dog off and knowing when a situation is no longer a threat sounds really interesting.
I know some dogs have a high predatory drive and some times when a dog goes into predatory drift that dog can be VERY dangerous. Does schutzhund training teach the dog to control its high predatory drive and to use it in a controlled athmosphere? I think that would be great to rein in a high drive dog breed and teach it controlled predotory drive. As you can determine, I don't know much about prey drives but Im really interesting in learning. :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

Matty,

I am still researching myself, but training in any kind of protection (or any kind of training really) helps tremendously in bringing a dog under control.

Shutzhund seems to rely on repetition of the same circumstance(s). The dogs is expected to react quickly and without hesitation to each of the circumstances and to release on command and prepare themselves for the next situation.

PSA, another form of protection training, seems to rely more on repition of varying circumstances. The dogs are exposed to literally hundreds or different protection scenarios and their reaction is guaged. If the dogs does not "out" (release the bite) on command during a situation, the dog and owner will do a quick refresher course to reinforce the concept further. The scenarios range from car-jacking to multiple assailants to an assailant in a car trying to grab the dogs owner while he/she is running. I think that is why I like PSA better--it has a more realistic ring to it. If I can call my dog off of two or more assailants who are showing aggression, then I can call him off of nearly anything.

Also, if he knows how easily he can defeat aggression from a full grown man, then he will not even perceive a child or a post man as a threat. (If anyone out there knows more than I do and thinks I am wrong, please tell me!!)

Lastly, a lot of protection actually comes from a defense drive. The dog actually perceives itself as being in danger (or that his pack is in danger0 and is fighting, literally, for his life. Prey drive, while very persuading, pales, in my comparison, to defense drive. The dog is taught that flight is not an option when faced with a threat. Fight is the only way to defend yourself.

The problem with a dog that flees, in my opinion, is that it will have the tendency, in a urban setting, to get backed into the corner of a house by a loud child or group of children and then bight out of fear. A dog that realizes that flight is not an option will not be a fear bighter and will not be scared to begin with.

These are just my opinions that I have developed throught a couple of weeks of research. If anyone has any other input, please let me know.

Thanks,
Joseph

[imported_Matty]

Very interesting. I read some where on a previous long ago post that some attacks to children (and mauling deaths) can be directly linked to predatory drift and really nice dogs some times perceiving children (running & screaming) and fearful humans as prey objects. I can't remember exactly how it was put, but, this poster said that some times a normally great family dog can go into predatory drift (kinda misdirected) to an activity that maybe the dog hasnt been properly exposed to. Or, some times when owners with small children mistake their high predatory dog's eye stalking and chasing as just play, some times it can lead to being more than play and can lead to a full out attack mainly towards children. Possibly in the dogs mind its just predatory play, but with the wrong breed and with a breed with too high a predatory drive it can lead to a dangerous situation, even with well obedeince trained dogs.
I think that the training that you are comtemplating sounds like it will create a safer dog. Its great to learn more about drives etc and how to direct them properly and control them. I think a dangerous dog is a breed that has a high prey drive and belongs to an owner who doesnt understand the drives their breed has. To control and direct the drives wisely is a controlled safe dog. :wink:
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. :wink:

[DogPaddle]

Either PSA or shutzhund would probablly be fine. PSA might provide more versatility but shutzhund might allow you the option to compete should you change your mind later - more opportunity to do stuff with your dog. I would think that a dog that could be ordered off in the high stress and distracting situation or a competition with other dogs and people around would be good too. Ultimately though, it would be best to go with the system that you are most comfortable with because it is likely, far more important that you do everything right and are consistant and well versed in the system you choose.
What you will want to be researching is WHO. There are some fairly disreputable trainers out there who cater to the "my dog is tougher than yours" crowd. You want a VERY reputable, compasionate trainer with integrity if you are going to do any sort of bite/protection training.

[Guest Anonymous]

Let me first start by thanking everyone for their input--I did not expect this much of a response!!!

Also, Matty, I don't want you to think I am an expert. I have just been reading A LOT! LOL! If you are interested in some more stuff about the different drives--there are several more drives--here is a good link...

[url]http://leerburg.com/drives.htm[/url]

there are also some more articles on dog bites and kids, etc.
take a look, its pretty interesting stuff.

Dogpaddle, what do you suggest looking for in a potential protection trainer? I have identified an individual that I am comfortable with as far as OB, but something about her makes me wary when it comes to protection--i guess that is probably reason enough not to use her for protection training. She seems very "macho" about her dog. A Malinios, she no doubt has the right to be proud, but she tells stories of how some guys got a little to "forward" with her and the backed down when she gave her dog the command to perk up.

Is this typical of protection trainers? I would never give my dog, who definately will have the ability to do some damage, the command to perk up unless I seriously feared that something was going to happen. Then again, I am a 200 pound man with very little concern for my ability to control my situation. That sounded a little sexist, but a 140 pound woman has more to worry about from a guy getting "forward" than I do.

That was kinda a ramble, but I hope you see where I am coming from.

Thanks again for all the input guys!!!

Joseph

[DogPaddle]

I think your instincts with this trainer are probably pretty good. I would look for a trainer who emphisizes obedience. Someone who wants to make sure the dog has the correct temperment for bite/protection work - someone who will call it quits if its not working for the dog (or if he/she thinks the handler is suspect as well.) Ask about the trainers human and doggy first aid experience and there saftey precautions - I would think that a good trainer would be prepared for injuries but do everything they can to avoid them. And look for someone who is serious but doesn't appear to be compensating for something. :lol:
Talk to people, ask to watch a class in progress without your dog and trust your instincts.

[pyrless]

I have a question, I thought that schutzhund encompassed obedience, tracking AND protection? I could, as I am wont to be, completely wrong on this... :roll:
Anyway I have seen schutzhund-trained GSDs in action and they are amazing to watch for their focus. I think it is not a bad idea at all, kind of along the same lines as teaching your barky dog to only bark on command...
Good luck to you! It sounds like fun and rigorous training for both of you!
(I am laughing to myself trying to imagine my pyr doing this. "What? I can't lie down now? How about now? Now?") :lol:

[odnarb]

[quote name='jweissg']She seems very "macho" about her dog. A Malinios, she no doubt has the right to be proud, but she tells stories of how some guys got a little to "forward" with her and the backed down when she gave her dog the command to perk up.

Is this typical of protection trainers? I would never give my dog, who definately will have the ability to do some damage, the command to perk up unless I seriously feared that something was going to happen. Then again, I am a 200 pound man with very little concern for my ability to control my situation. That sounded a little sexist, but a 140 pound woman has more to worry about from a guy getting "forward" than I do.[/quote]


I find a lot of macho attitudes in protection sports. However, you may be right about her being a woman in that situation. I've been stalked, and It was scary. When I first moved to the city from my little country bumpkin upbringing, I was grabbed in a parking lot by a strange man within a month of my arrival here. I also once had a strange man burst into my apartment, and I was VERY fortunate to have Brando take over the situation and place himself betweem the man and me, chasing him out of the apartment.

I've been training in FR/MR, and recently switched over to Schutzhund. I've not been impressed w/ the people &stuff I've seen on PSA. I see NOTHING but macho attitudes, and encouraging risky and stupid behaviors. Junkyard dog crap. Not impressed.

Schutzhund fits me, and my beasties, best. Obedience is really important, and tracking is FUN! This is the sport I'd recommend for a Presa, if I were going to pick one. I'm not at all impressed w/ PSA, and that's too big of a dog to be doing the jumps in ring.

JMHO :lol:

[Guest Anonymous]

hey odnarb,

glad to hear Brando handled everything like a champ!!

If you dont mind me asking, what area are you from? A lot of people have told me that the protection sports take on very different attitudes depending on where the club is located.

Thanks for the reply!

Joseph

[odnarb]

[quote name='jweissg']hey odnarb,

glad to hear Brando handled everything like a champ!!

If you dont mind me asking, what area are you from? A lot of people have told me that the protection sports take on very different attitudes depending on where the club is located.

Thanks for the reply!

Joseph[/quote]


I'm in the Pacific NW.

I've not heard that the attitudes vary by region. They tend to vary more according to club, and like minded people tend to flock together. One of the joys of the internet is that you can communicate with people in other clubs from all over.

I've met both macho and realistic people in Ring and in Schutzhund. I've met nothing but macho in PSA.

[Guest Anonymous]

Hmmm...well I may be mistaken. I have yet to be able to check out a PSA Club.

In your opinion, does Sch produce a dog that will be effective in a real situation if confronted?

The one criticism of Sch that I have seen over and over again is that dogs may not be up to the task in real life. They are not "pressured" or presented with enough new situations to react.

On the other hand, I would MUCH rather not be involved in the macho aspect of it all. Are there any other clubs I should look into?

Thanks,
Joseph

[courtnek]

well I have never protection trained a dog, or taken classes in it, I can say from experience that the obedience aspect of this makes a large, dangerous dog much more readily called off of a situation than one who isnt. I had friends at the police station, who have attacked trained K-9 dogs, and I have watched them get put through their paces. they stopped and called off instantly, no matter whast the provocation. I think its a good idea.

[Guest Anonymous]

I have been looking on some other boards and doing some more research. I came across a club called K-9 ProSports. The are up and coming club--not as big as SCH

They require all of their trainers to have trained a dog successfully to the highest level in Sch, French Ring, and Mondio Ring.

The breeds that are not as prey driven seem to excel here where there is a focus on defending the handler.

More to come...

Joseph

[courtnek]

well, this is kinda off subject, but a year or so ago there was a criminal here in Chicago who was apprehended by a cop for stealing a purse. he was a big guy, couple hundred pounds, and he shoved the cop away and then proceeded to steal the squad car.....

except.....the squad car was a K-9 unit, which is boldly emblazoned on the doors, hood and trunk....the cop had left the divider between front and back open when he stepped out of the car, which is commonly done because they can hit a switch on their belts and open the passenger doors in the front, and the dog can get out if necessary.

so the guy jumps in the squad and takes off, only to suddenly found the K9 in his face. he actually hit the dog and bit its ear, but the dog bit him several times in the arm. in the struggle with the dog he lost control and hit a building, then tried to flee on foot while bleeding.

he was quickly apprehended and taken into custody, and the dog was uninjured. and won an award.

and the whole time I'm listening to this story I'm thinking "DARWIN AWARD for this moron....." who in their right mind steals a squad with an attack trained GSP in it? and here, they dont take the K9 units out unless they have the dog with them....and it says K9 everywhere on the car...

his original crime was attempted theft of a purse. misdemeanor, no biggie. now he has assaulting as officer (2 counts, since the dog is considered an officer as well) and grand theft auto.....resisting arrest..
etc....

:evilbat: :evilbat: