Guest Anonymous Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 Just something to think about for people who feed their dogs a completely raw diet...I found this article very interesting and I'm looking around for more that are opposed to raw diets just to get the other side of the argument so I can finally decide what I think about it after I do some more research. [url]http://secondchanceranch.org/rawmeat.html[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 osrry id otn feed raw diet! :o :o i dotn eat meat so there is no way i'll touch it and feed it to my dogs.. i'd probally get sick.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 Well you already know my opinion on this! But if you find more artical do post them please!! I will try and finishing that one you sent me when I am not so dead tired and it doesn't go in through the eyes and out the back of my head :lol: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajiesMom Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 I will not feed raw meat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Chaos Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 Thats definately an eye opener. We fed BARF for a while and did see a huge improvent in the dogs, even though we were feeding Wellness a high quality kibble before. I don't know if I would ever go back to BARF cause its just to much work. I would like to read more articles like this though, most i've seen are all pro-BARF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 I too wont feed raw meat, of any sort. (ok, I'm crazy, but i will cook the hot dogs for them. I KNOW they are pre-cooked, I heat them up anyway) I have had both salmonella poisoning, and botulism (sp?)....which made me so sick I thought I was gonna die. I have never fed anything raw to my pets. I know that people believe that raw is better, (and it is, for veggies, a lot of the nutrients "cook out" in those) but I wont risk it. I have read that truly wild animals, like wolves, still have the use of their appendixes, which supposedly warded off the bacteria of the raw meat, but there is no confirmation on that. of course, raw meat in itself is not bad, it's when it's been allowed to lay around and spoil that the trouble happens. Wolves eat as soon as they kill. they dont wait a few days. I believe alot of what has been seen in this issue is people who dont understand that raw mwat CANNOT be left unfrozen or unrefrigerated, even for a few hours. Thats when the bacteria starts to develop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajiesMom Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 You can buy/make modified BARF - lightly steamed and cooked just enough to kill off all the bacteria and bad stuff. I feed it as part of Magic's diet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefeathers! Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 You'll find that this is a VERY divided topic. Pro BARFers are usually adamantly so. I feed pretty similarly to what MajiesMom described. I mean, I feed kibble (Canidae and Wellness rotated), but when I add fresh ingredients, I lightly cook them. I did have one of my dogs on a raw diet a long time ago in an effort to help with her allergies, but she got very, very sick with salmonella which some people say can't happen in dogs (culture proved otherwise) and that could have supposedly come from "anywhere." I've also since seen dogs in our clinic come through which did have have injuries sustained from bones, mostly chicken, that were fed raw. Some actually had caught and killed the chickens themselves, so it couldn't have been any more fresh than that (some people say raw bones are no problem if fed correctly). All this said, my position is that raw or BARF is not the diet for MY dogs. However, I can respect that many are doing well on it and am ok with that knowledge. I believe there is no perfect diet for every dog. My disdain and resentment stem from people who repeatedly say that BARF is the best diet all dogs could have and could only go wrong if prepared and handled incorrectly. I can respect that many dogs do well on raw foods, but I wish some of the more adamant BARFers could recognize that not every dog will do well on it regardless of research, preparation and execution. You'll find that it's a very divided subject and can lead to some pretty heated discussions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shenanigans Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 I feed raw, in fact my dogs have been happily munching on some raw meaty bones we got from St. Lawrence Market for $1.00 a bag! :P I feed it simply because it's the best diet I can afford to give my dogs. Premium kibbles would cost me at least $120.00 a month to feed both of my guys, feeding raw costs me $60.00 a month if not less. We give everything raw...except for table scraps such as pizza bones. Outside of table scraps, we don't feed grains at all. We used to, but it didn't sit well with my Newfoundland's coat and recently cut them out. I've been feeding raw for 5 years this fall, and my dogs have never been better. Shenanigans has always been fed raw so I can't really comment on his before state, but Banzai was not always the healthiest dog. He has constant yeast, skin, eye and ear infections. He was also chronically 30lbs underweight no matter what kibble we fed him. About four months after feeding raw, all his conditions cleared up, he gained weight which he has maintained for 4 years and change. Both of my dogs are therapy dogs and are around people with lowered immune systems such as cancer patients, PWA's etc. They haven't made anyone sick to date. Banzai is ten and he has shown no signs of aging (other than plenty o grey!) he's not stiff at all and still very nicely conditioned. Shenanigans has grade two hip dysplasia and you would never be able to tell. Both dogs are lean, muscular healthy with nice white pearly teeth. We also see a holistic vet in East York. That said, it's not a diet to just jump into. I have witnessed a lot of people who couldn't get through an entire book on the topic jump into the diet with little information and they've done a number on their dogs. This is a really neat article coming from a pro raw view, but still advising people not to just jump in. [url]http://www.caberfeidh.com/NaturalDiet.htm[/url] Anyhow, if at the end of your homework (which I strongly recommend and commend you for doing) you are interested, I can recommend some good local sites and resources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajiesMom Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 Hi there Shenanigans. Do you have names of holistic vets in Toronto? I'm in Etobicoke and I would really love to get one for my parents dog, a Sheltie that has EPI and vWD, they live in King City (York Region). I just noticed you have a GSD, he is so handsome!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 thanks Mei - I'm anal retentive about the dogs food. the dry is small nuggets, the canned is stirred in until well meshed, and the hot dogs and every other form of people food are cut up. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: this is because I had a baby...everything had to be cut up for him... he now thinks I'm nuts, but I do it anyway... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 I feed a variety of different foods in my dogs diet. It includes kibble (wellness or solid gold), cooked meats, steamed veggies, fruits, some nuts & seeds and I do feed raw meat on occasion-always have...not as a full time diet. I do give my dogs raw meaty bones all the time...I have for years and have never had a dog suffer from pancreatitis. Acutally at the vet clinic I work at the rise in dogs with pancreatitis fed only kibble diets has increased significantly in the past few years. We are treating more dogs with this ailment and diabetes than any thing else and this is from dogs and cats on a kibble diet. I was talking to my mother asking her what they fed their dogs when they were kids living on a farm (back in the 1930's) she said when thier father butchered a chicken or cow etc. the dogs got what was left over of the carcass. The cats lived on what they killed in the barn and an occasional saucer of milk...mom said it never stopped the cats from reproducing (mass producing). Kinda sad, but, back in those days when they had over abundance of cats/kittens running around granddad would have to "take care of the over surplus". :( Mom said they never heard of kibble back when she was growing up and it never hurt their dogs at all to eat raw foods and left overs. She had a collie mix and a lab mix which lived to be over 15 years old. I'm not saying that what was written in the article is not correct. I am sure there have been alot of dogs suffer from being on the BARF diet. I for one believe in variety in my dogs life. I don't have a problem feeding raw a few times a week. :wink: I do think some people get a little too caught up in the BARF diet. Here is just some info I thought some people may find interesting. [quote]It is more than safe to say that diseases such as Cancer are not caused by cooking your meat.[/quote] If meat is cooked properly it is not cancerous. But, it is cancerous if you over cook it or slightly blacken the animal flesh...it then becomes carcinogenic. Regarding the write up on toxoplasmosis (parasite) here is some interesting information on that particualr parasite [quote]In the United States, people are much more likely to become infected with toxoplasmosis through eating raw meat (pork) than from handling cat feces. People also become infected by eating unwashed fruits and vegetables. Do not just focus on cats. It is unlikely you will become infected by petting an infected cat. The oocysts do not tend to stick to the fur like roundworm eggs might. The cat, while grooming, would generally remove any oocysts on the fur, before they become infective. It is unlikely that you can become infected through cat bites or scratches. What are my health risks if my cat tests positive for toxoplasmosis? As odd as it may seem, a healthy cat that tests positive is probably safer than a cat that tests negative. Let us explain that. Cats that test positive have been exposed to toxoplasmosis. They have developed strong immunity to T. gondii, which means they are very unlikely to become infected again and pass oocysts if they are re-exposed to T. gondii within a year of their first infection. Over half of the cats that have become infected have immunity for up to 6 years. Negative cats, however, have no immunity or protection against becoming infected with T. gondii. If they become infected, they will pass oocysts in their feces that can infect humans and other animals.[/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 One thing I will add...I do not feed hot dogs to my dogs, nor do I eat hot dogs myself. That is one processed food you will not find in my home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SixstarDanes Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 We've been feeding our 4 footed canine kids a raw diet for almost 4 years now. There are soooo many things I like about it! We're lucky to be able to get the majority of our dogs' menu from a co-op. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shenanigans Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 Thank you Majie's Mom. My GSD thinks he's the most beautiful creature in the world (he's not even mortal according to his attitude!) :) We see Dr. Cindy Kneebone of the East York Animal Clinic. They're at St. Clair and O'Connor. We're in Scarborough, so they're only about a 20 minute drive for us, but considerably longer for people having to come through the bulk of the city. Nevertheless Dr. Cindy is very knowledgable, thorough, and great with the animals and very friendly with the people. She has a good sense of humour, although she did make fun of Banzai's bum and he wasn't too pleased, but he's not paying the bills so too bad. lol [url]http://www.holisticpetvet.com/[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouseatthebusstop Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 I work full time and just find it easier to feed out of a sack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 Majiies Mom...I was just wondering how long you steam/lightly cook the meat for in order to kill all the bacteria...I was just reading somewhere that anything above 106 F gets rid of all the enzymes.. I was also reading in that article that I posted that enzymes don't really make a difference for the animal...so many oppositions and so little time... Please, let me know how you prepare the meat without giving it raw..I'm not really comfortable with the idea of BARF myself.. Any other suggestions on how to cook the meat to kill all the junk? My other question is...if I decide to keep feeding cooked meat without bones of course, what do you all suggest as a calcium supplement? I was reading that its a great idea to save eggshells and put them in the oven for about 5 minutes..then take them out an grind them into a nice powder, using probably a teaspoon per cup of meat.... currently, I give her yogurt sometimes and cottage cheese on other days...I also know that broccoli is a good source of calcium, which I also incorporate into the diet...at the same time, I heard broccoli causes gas so don't overfeed it.....what do the people who cook their meat use for calcium besides the actual pill powder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefeathers! Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 You can buy bone meal that's already finely ground. Maybe TDG will come forward because IMO she's da bomb on this stuff and has been one reliable source of information for me on natural diets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 cheese is also a good source of calcium, you just gotta watch the fat content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajiesMom Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 [quote name='Anonymous'] Please, let me know how you prepare the meat without giving it raw..I'm not really comfortable with the idea of BARF myself.. Any other suggestions on how to cook the meat to kill all the junk? [/quote] Nature's Link does the cooking: [url]http://www.natureslink.ca/caninelinks.html[/url] I would rather make it myself but I have so much research to do first. I have many recipies and prepare them for my dog but I don't know enough to quit commercial food cold turkey and experiment on my dog. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDG Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 i feed a variety of raw and cooked foods, depending on the sources i get them from. overall i'm very comfortable "sitting on the fence" between hardcore advocates of either feeding philosophy and try to stay tuned to what works best for [b]my[/b] individual dog. when i can get a hold of decent-priced organic stuff, i'm not going to destroy any of the nutrients by cooking. it gets fed raw, and pronto. i used to be a lot more worried about feeding raw items, but since i have been feeding raw bones for over 24 years, at one point it hit me that it seems somewhat odd to [b]not[/b] feed raw meats as well. if there are bacteria, they will be in the meats as well as the bones. of course what you feed depends on the individual person's comfort level, but it is important not to forget that a dog's digestive system is very different from that of humans. someone brought up the argument that "wolves eat when they kill", so they would basically be eating fresh food, but that statement isn't entirely true. wolves are scavengers and eat whatever is most convenient - which can be fresh prey (if it can be obtained), or it can be carrion. the digestive system of a healthy dog will be perfectly able to handle the load of bacteria. if you have an animal with health issues or a depressed immune system and you suspect that problems could arise - don't feed raw. it's not worth risking. coming back to raw vs. cooked - even when i do cook meat, i take great care not to cook it too long or at high temperatures. ground meats for example get "cooked" enough from just stirring them into a pot of hot oatmeal, rice, barley, bulgur etc. - no need to cook it any more than that. by the time the "stew" is at feeding temperature, the meat is done too. i'm not a big fan of "premade" barf diets at all, unless you buy just the "pure" meats, organs, bones etc. and do the rest yourself. with anything premade you lose control of ingredient quality for the most part, plus the stuff is processed, stored and transported who knows where from. and it is expensive! after all my research i have found that i can do a [b]lot[/b] better by doing my own shopping. it's not all that time intensive, with my feeding routine it takes about 2-3 hours every 4-6 weeks. i don't have a big freezer either, so i tend to not buy and stock too much at any given time. as for calcium supplementation, i have addressed the topic here [url]http://forum.dogomania.com/viewtopic.php?t=12539[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 I'm reading Dr.Pitcairns book..read like half of it already, especially took care of the first part with the recipes and such. HE USES A HECK OF ALOT OF GRAINS = rice/oats/potatoes... I'm so confused. I read that those things should be avoided, and that it should be kept to mostly meats and veggies..and now I see this... :cry: Help... Furthermore, It still didn't help me out with the calcium/phosphorus ratios in foods...which veggies should I mix with which meats to get everything to balance properly and not have too much of this or that? UGH..this is so confusing and I'm not finding any answers in these books! *burns them all*...anyone have more that I can look into? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDG Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 the grains he uses aren't any higher quantities than you'd find in commercial food as well. economically and environmentally pitcairn's feeding philosophy is sound, but you can still adjust if you want to use less grains. i guess you are referring to authors like for example schultze, who are dead set against grains, which is just another view, and i wouldn't call it any more or any less valid than those of the authors of other books on home prepared diets. :) i can only come back to recommending the nutritiondata.com website if you don't want to follow formulated recipes from a book. it lets you combine all kinds of food sources into custom recipes, which give you average amounts of just about any nutrient you can think of. from there on, all you need to do is to calculate the amount of egg shell powder to add. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 [quote name='courtnek']cheese is also a good source of calcium, you just gotta watch the fat content.[/quote] WAHHH!!! are you telling me its NOT a good source of calcium? I HATE PILLS!! I have to take too many already!! :drinking: :drinking: :drinking: :drinking: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 TDG...I like pitcairn's recipes..and they're easy to follow..but if I was to cook the food for my dog, I don't think I would like to use as much grains as he does (rice/oatmeal/soy)...and more vegetables (come on...2 tablespoons? :-? ) how would I go about substituting this for say more vegetables or meat? I'm not sure how to do it. I looked at nutritiondata but its confusing. Would I have to calculate each and every incredient that I put into the recipe? Pitcairn has a list of substitutes you can use for the otameal, but his substitutes are just more grains... :o Any comments on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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