Breeding "mutts" on purpouse?

[Crested]

I thought I'd ask as I run in to this thing regulary.
Many people think that it's ok to breed x-breeds (don't like the word mutt). They have all kinds of arguments that make it ok. I've heard these things:
- they have two pure breed dogs of diffirent breeds that they want puppies from, because the two are so good and adorable that the owners think it's good to get offspring from.
- they say that x-breeds are more healthy then purebreeds
- people are breeding so many purebreeds, why not x-breeds?
- they feel sad for the x-breeds as they see that some people think they are "less worthy" then purebreeds
- they just want puppies to care for
- they are short with money and they need it fast.

So... Is there an excuse for breeding x-breeds on purpouse?
Sure I'd love to get a Crested and Peruvian Hairless mix someday and I even concidured having a Crest-Peruvian litter (Doesn't mean that I'm goint to do it). But is there anything that makes breeding "cocktails" right?


[size=2](I hope this doesn't turn into a fight)[/size]

[Guest Anonymous]

IMHO, no I don't think there's any reason to breed mixed breed dogs. In the USA at least there are plenty of mixed breed puppies and dogs put to death each year because people don't want them. I don't see the need to put more potential (sp?) victims out there. But that's just my opinion.

[StarFox]

[quote name='Crested']
- they have two pure breed dogs of diffirent breeds that they want puppies from, because the two are so good and adorable that the owners think it's good to get offspring from.
[color=darkblue]And I could go down to the local shelter and find a dog that is the same mix as what they want to breed. So this isn't a good reason.[/color]
- they say that x-breeds are more healthy then purebreeds
[color=darkblue]
Bah! Biggest Pile a bull doo that I've ever heard. usually people who just want to breed Labradoodles or any doodles don't do any medical test on the dogs before hand. Plus there is no real hard evidence of either pure breeds or x-breeds being heathier[/color]
- people are breeding so many purebreeds, why not x-breeds?
[color=darkblue]And so many pure breeds and x-breeds are ending up in shelters so why breed at all[/color].

- they feel sad for the x-breeds as they see that some people think they are "less worthy" then purebreeds
[color=darkblue]Then why create more if people think less of them. That just dosn't make sense at all.[/color]
- they just want puppies to care for
[color=darkblue]Ok let me go down to the local shelter and pick up a couple of dozen puppies for them to take care of. If they want puppies so much then they can foster[/color].

- they are short with money and they need it fast.
[color=darkblue]Sell stuff on ebay, have a yard sale. become a guinea pig for medical experiments. Get an extra job, if they have enough time to take care of a litter of pups they can get a part time job. Money is NEVER an excuse to breed.[/color]

So... Is there an excuse for breeding x-breeds on purpouse?
[color=darkblue]Yup there are many excuses for breeding but never any good reasons[/color].

[size=2](I hope this doesn't turn into a fight)[/size][/quote][color=#444444][/color][color=#444444][/color][color=#444444][/color]

[Crested]

I totally agree!
Hmm... thinking about this now... I should have put this thread on Debates... :oops: (too fast fingers)

Thanks K for moving this for me! :)

[Guest Mutts4Me]

I don't agree with superficial crosses... crosses for money... crosses for the heck of it... "I wonder what A x B would look like" crosses...

No, I don't believe in breeding crosses on purpose. I think there may be a few exceptions to the rule, such as crossbreeding for working purposes, but only in very specialized programs, and only for good purposes.

LOL :lol: I've noticed a few different people recently who don't like the term "Mutt." Does it sound negative? I embrace it for my dog and myself, as a proud description of what we are! I've had people ask me "What are you?" before (now, I look like an average white girl, mind you), and I used to say "Irish," because my last name is Irish, and that's probably the predominate % of my, uhh.. heritage? But I'm also French-Canadian, Blackfoot Indian, German, Scottish, and probably other stuff as well. So by saying "Irish," was I denying the rest of me? So now I proudly answer that question with "I'm a purebred American Mutt" ;)

[Guest Anonymous]

Mutts4Me - I'm a mutt too! And DARN PROUD! :D :D (and so is my Coaly :wink: )

I will not even touch this topic though, I will feel like a broken record, and everyone already knows how I feel on this subject :evil: :evil: :drinking: :wink:

[KP]

[quote name='Crested'] - they are short with money and they need it fast.[/quote]

:lol: This one kind of made me laugh... How long does it take to spit out a litter of pups again? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: They could probably find like 5 extra jobs at least in the amount of time it takes to bare those litters. I agree it should never be about the money.

As much as I love so many mutts in my life, I don't agree with breeding cross breeds. They can make wonderful pets but I just don't think given the pet population is at an all time high that its right to breed dogs just to breed them. There is more to the gene pool than that. I'm not much of a believer that mixes are healthier than pure breds either. I'd like to see the written facts backed up with research on where everyone gets that information from...I have yet to find it.

Great debate though :D

[kendalyn]

If we got the dog overpopulation problem under control, I wouldn't mind it. But until than no way.

[imported_Elle]

breeding "cocktails" is no different than any other breeding

buyers of "cocktails" are certainly no worse than buyers of "purebreds"

[imported_Cassie]

First off...where do you think our purebreds came from in the first place???? people have not always been there to breed dogs...just like humans....dogs had races - adapted to suite their environment...the different races would be considered mongrels...man created purebred dogs, mongrels occured due to natural selection...

Way back before all of these horrible genetic diseases man was ALOT smarter they used to crossbreed all the time...that is why our purebreds were good dogs at one time...they were the end result of cross breeding...but, man has gotten really stupid and has stopped crossbreeding...now, we have small populations of purebred dogs...the gene pools for these dogs are growing smaller and smaller...you can only keep a purebred for so long before the gene pool gets too small....then you have the added problem of people breeding to the winning champion show dogs...this further decreases the gene pool ...then we have these unrealistic goals of the "perfect dogs" each dog within a purebred must look a certain way, must be within a certain height, color...sounds pretty stupid to me...every time I talk with one of my "reputable breeder" friends...I am always hearing the woes of this gentic disease...and finally getting it out of a line then another genetic disease pops up...the smaller the gene pool the more the dogs are going to be prone to allergies, skin disorder, behavior problems, orthophedic problems.....

[quote]they have two pure breed dogs of diffirent breeds that they want puppies from, because the two are so good and adorable that the owners think it's good to get offspring from. [/quote]
Reputable breeders are breeding for looks...it is wrong to breed a dog for looks and beauty...a GOOD breeder will breed a dog for stability and for the "job" it can perform...
[quote]they say that x-breeds are more healthy then purebreeds [/quote]
In most cases they can be...I deal with alot of dogs daily...the purebreds are the dogs experiencing the most allergies, orthopedic problems, patella problems, behavior problems...but, of course once these man made genetic diseases are out there then they can and will carry on to other dogs...I can't delete a genetic problem just by cross breeding...and even if that purebred did breed to the local mongrel...the diseases can and will pop up in the future....even if they are "mutts"
[quote]people are breeding so many purebreeds, why not x-breeds?[/quote] I think every one should slow down on the breeding aspect...reputable breeders who only do conformation showing are doing some pretty nasty things to our dogs...then they try to cover up their mistakes by saying they are doing "health tests"
As long as there are humans there will always be an over population of dogs...even in some small villages where they have orginal mongrels...they could cull all the dogs one year due to an out break of rabies and within a few years they have a big population of dogs again.

[quote]they feel sad for the x-breeds as they see that some people think they are "less worthy" then purebreeds [/quote]
I feel sad for most purebreds as I see how man can ruin animals by being so anal.
[quote]they just want puppies to care for [/quote]
That is the wrong reason for any one breeding...another wrong reason is producing litter after litter looking for that dog with the "perfect" conformation.
[quote]Is there an excuse for breeding x-breeds on purpouse?[/quote]
There is no excuse for breeding purebreds on purose either...now, if you want a good working dog...and people who actually "work" their dogs for sheep herding etc. know that cross breeding is good breeding...keeps the genes fresh.
I could create a human purebred as well....I could take a small population of people...get the look I want...lets say blond hair and blue eyes...and try to make them in the range of 5 foot 6 inches....I keep breeding within the same line to keep the blond hair blue eyed people...and I want them also to have an artistic talent...so this futher limits the gene pool...any human with brown hair and hazel eyes or brown is not accepted in my new human purebred...so I will call them "mutts"....does this sound like healthy genetics to you??? when you start getting away from the orginal look of the human...then your really asking for alot of genetic problems.

[quote]I hope this doesn't turn into a fight[/quote]
Of course you wanted to start a fight... :lol: :agrue:
I don't really care if no one agrees with me....I know that in a way I am on the right track...I see far too many genetic problems in our purebreds to think I may be too far wrong. I have been working with dogs for over 20 years....the new genetic diseases popping up are startling....hip dysplasia is so common now that it just about pops into every doggy conversation...20 years ago you rarely heard about HD...strange huh???

[KP]

[quote name='kendalyn']If we got the dog overpopulation problem under control, I wouldn't mind it. But until than no way.[/quote]

I'm kinda with you there kendalyn... :wink:

[imported_Elle]

Cassie, I agree w/ you.

[science_doc]

I would also tend to side with most of Cassie's views, but of course that won't make anyone go :o

[Crested]

[quote name='Kiwi']I don't see why people get offended by the term Mutt either.

It's not meant to be derogatory, it's definition is dog of unknown origin :roll:

I think saying Mutts are healthier than purebreds is absolutely rubbish. You know what problems can crop up from a purebred, so you know exactly what to test for. And who does health clearances on crossbreds? You wouldn't even know where to start for testing![/quote]
I agree Kiwi. And even if your dog is healthy, your dog's parents, siblings, cousins and so on, might not be. I don't think there is a line of purebred (or crossbreed) dogs that have no health problems what so ever.
So I think that if breeding two dogs of the same breed can cause health problems, then why not two of diffirent breeds? I see it as just as big of a chanse.
For example I saw a crossbreed in the tv once between a Chihuahua and a Labrador. And putting such a huge size diffirence together... I can only guess that means trouble.
And when we have this many dog breeds already, why make new ones? I've heard so many who have said thay are working on a new breed. Some say that oodle and poo mixes are new breeds aswell. And I see no point in doing so. I see poo and oodle dogs as cocktails. Period. And I feel the same way for these "new" breeds.

[imported_Cassie]

[quote]I think saying Mutts are healthier than purebreds is absolutely rubbish. You know what problems can crop up from a purebred, so you know exactly what to test for. And who does health clearances on crossbreds? You wouldn't even know where to start for testing![/quote]

Kiwi, I can test my purebreds for all the health problems known to that breed...I can certify my purebreds up the ying yang...but, that does not gaurantee the pups will not suffer from some health problems due to genetics...even though all that line was certified. When you try to keep a purebred in an unusal shape...you are CREATING health problems...some examples I can think of are German Shepherds; do you think it is natural to keep a dog with that much angulation in the rear end?? do you know how many Shepherds I have watched stumbling around the show ring...is this genetically heathy...do you think that by keeping this breed in such a horrible conformation is doing the dogs any good...could it possibly be that by keeping the dogs in this horrible conformation that we are creating genetic diseases??? and this is being done by "reputable breeders" the more angulated the better.
I have seen kennels successfully get HD out of their line only to have elbow dysplasia pop up...I have seen Newfoundland dogs suffering from a luxating patella!!! that is not a normal genetic disease of Newf's...
I have a Newfoundland dog at home which has elbow dysplasia...it was never certified or tested because this is not a normal genetic disease of Newf's...my Newf is also a champion in Canada & the USA...I only found out he has ED due to his lameness after a walk.
Breeding purebred dogs is risky...by trying to breed out a genetic disease...alot of times you are creating a new one...I find this scary.
Also, do people actually think that reputable breeders are breeding for sturdy, hardy breeds?? they are mainly breeding for the "perfect" conformation...which one has the best top line, which dog is closest to how the breed should look....this is not a good reason to be breeding...and reputable breeders get so caught up in the "look" of the dog and the winning dog...showing dogs is addictive....having a winning dog brings that kennel a little glory....I find this shallow and a stupid reason to be breeding unhealthy animals...health tests have to be done as the breeding they are performing is not natural...I find health testing to be just a bunch of bolony...its basically...."how odd can we make this breed look before it genetically starts falling apart???"
I really don't think our mongrels would have survived for thousands of years if they were prone to alot of the genetic diseases we are experiencing today...I am sure I could go to any village in Africa and find a healthy population of mongrel dogs.
I think dog breeders should sit down with horse breeders to learn how to do it right. Here is a classic example of how man can create genetic diseases...they were starting to breed a bulky, big chested quater horse...this horses were used for halter shows...they were breeding for exaggerated looks for these horses...they looked muscualar and beautiful...but, they suffered from a genetic heart condition...any excess physical activity could cause the horse to drop dead...this is not healthy breeding...but, this shows you that when you start getting anal about breeding and expect a certain "look" you can cause more damage than you save.

[science_doc]

Genetically speaking purebred dogs have a higher chance of producing diseased offspring because the dog and the bitch can be genetically nearly identical. Especially when breeders practice inbreeding. This is why you know exactly which diesease "pop" up in specific breeds, because the majority of the gene pool tends to be a carrier for the same genetic diseases. Now I have heard the argument that "my" lines are clean and all "my" dogs are healthy, but just wait, keep inbreeding. Eventually all the scientific evidence I have ever seen suggests that you are playing with fire.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The dog population is ripe for a major comuninicable disease outbreak. The immune system relies HEAVILY on genetic variability for the survival of any given population to a diesease outbreak. As the canine gene pools become smaller and smaller, the chance of all members of the pool being susceptable to a viral or bacterial diease increases EVERY inbred generation. This could lead to a disaster if a new canine pathogen comes along.

[color=red]Disclaimer - I am not saying that ALL purebred dogs are bad or unhealthly, or that all dog breeders are bad. I base my ideas about dog breeding mostly from people on this site and things I read on the web. I'm just worried about the future of the canine species.[/color]

[bk_blue]

Ugh it's a toughie... :) I think my hope that the dog overpopulation problem is fixed is a pipe dream. I seriously don't think it will happen in my lifetime. Until it is fixed, then I can't see the point of producing crossbred dogs just for the hell of it. I can see the point with purebred dogs because there's always going to be a demand for them. I just wish that [i]most[/i] (not ALL) people would stop producing dogs, full stop. Both mongrels and purebreds. There are too many bad examples of both types not only suffering in shelters and bad homes but giving their breed a bad reputation. (APBT anyone?)

I think everyone has made excellent points so far. :)

[Black GSD]

[quote name='Cassie']

I think dog breeders should sit down with horse breeders to learn how to do it right. Here is a classic example of how man can create genetic diseases...they were starting to breed a bulky, big chested quater horse...this horses were used for halter shows...they were breeding for exaggerated looks for these horses...they looked muscualar and beautiful...but, they suffered from a genetic heart condition...any excess physical activity could cause the horse to drop dead...[/quote]


Huh? What "genetic heart condition" are you talking about? I have been breeding Quarter horses for a lot of years and have never heard of such a thing. Are you talking about HYPP? If so it isn't a "heart condition".

[imported_Cassie]

Black GSD, I will find out more about this genetic disease for you...I just remember it coming up in a discussion at the barn I co-lease my grade horse. There is a gentleman who breeds quarter horses who did a breeding with one of the girls horses at the barn...any how, this stallion comes from the line which carries this genetic disease...the girl who owns the mare if very worried about her foal. I think they were talking about a xaliver line of quarter horese, and I beleive they referred to it as a Y2 disease???
I will find out more about this next time I am at the barn...even the owner of the barn I board my horse at didn't know about this genetic disorder until last summer...and she has been into horses and breeding for about 50 years.
I really enjoy listening to people talking about horses...my horse will be bred this summer coming up...I have a great quarter horse in mind...or I should say the owner of the horse I co-lease has a great quarter horse in mind :lol: even though the mare is a grade horse we will be able to register it as a quarter horse. Horse people are very smart when it comes to breeding and not anal like dog breeders...don't you think blackGSD??? another one of my friends who breeds quarter horses is introducing morgan horses into his breeding program and crossbreeding the two for a better more stable horse.

[Black GSD]

Cassie,

There is a "line" of horses that can have a disease called HYPP. It causes muscle paralysis(sp) and can be fatal. It is thought that it all started with a Stud named Impressive. It IS genetic, But they CAN test for it. If you remember, see if you can find out what they are talking abut at your barn. There are always new things popping up. (Thank DOG I'm not into halter horses. (Those are the ones that have been "ruined" (IMO) the most.)

As far as the mare that you lease. If she is in fact grade (meaning no papers, the foal can NOT be registered with the AQHA. (American Quarter Horse Association.) If the stud IS registered with the AQHA and has regular papers, the mare MUST either have"regular" AQHA papers, or Appendix AQHA papers or be a registered Thoroughbred(that is what they call "listed" with the AQHA). NO others are eligable for registration. And if the stallion owner is telling you guys different he/she is a LIAR. (Unless of course they are talking about some "fly by night" registration association.) I would ask the stud owner EXACTLY what registery the foal will be able to be registered with. If he/she says the AQHA, I would call him a LIAR to his face! Believe ME, I know all about what it takes to register a horse with the AQHA. As a matter of fact, I just sent in the registration applications on 2 of mine today. (One out of a registered AQHA mare and the other out of a Thoroughbred mare.)