Questions on Showing and such, All Help Appreciated! :D

[SweetRuiN]

Hello everyone! This is my first post, and I'm delighted I stumbled upon these wonderful forums! Everyone seems so wonderful and helpful!
I have a very loving, energetic, and "hoovering" Black Lab pup who just turned 1yr old. I know he's a bit old, but now my life has settled down (many unexpected, highly-stalling, life alterations over the past 7mo) and I want to know what options I have left. This is my first pedigree-havin-baby, and I'd love to enrich his puppy life by showing off those Lab skills!


I've just a few basic newbie questions.


When is the best time to start training a pup for shows? Is there an age -limit- on such things, or a "it's really too late now" limit?

Are there any traits puppies can show that suggest showing is/isn't a good idea? I know Cole seems to have puppy ADD, but he's extremely intelligent and enthusiastic.

Outside of attending shows, reading as much as possible, and visiting websites...is there any other ways to learn as much as I can about the art of showing/breeding and my babe's breed?

Does anyone have an personal tips/advice for a newbie?


...also, abit off-topic. After showing (provided Cole isn't too old) I would like to *look into* breeding, possibly. I have the time, dedication, room, and passion for the breed that is requried...short of reading, speaking with breeders, and attending shows..I've been unable to find any further infomation. Any tips? It's something I -might- be interested in, later. If not with Cole, then my next =)

Thanks so much guys!


~Lori
(..and Cole!)

[kendalyn]

The only thing I know about showing is that usually the dogs cannot be spayed or neutered to participate and he also needs to be registered.

If he is already "fixed" there are a lot of other competition sports that Cole can participate in such as fly ball and agility.

I'm sure others will have more information for you though as I have never participated in showing. :-)

[SweetRuiN]

OH, yes! I forgot to mention. He's unaltered (much to his relief! Vets are skeery!)

[JudyHoffman]

There are many many things that you need to consider. Probably too numerous to name here.

1.) What qualities does your dog have that will enrich/better your breed of choice?
2.) What can good characteristics can your dog add to the gene pool?
3.) What do you know about your dogs lineage/pedigree at least 5 generations back?
4.) Are there any working titles?
5.) Are there any conformation (show) titles?
6.) Are there any AKC champions or bitches with ROM (Registry of Merit) in their litters?
7.) What are the accomplishments of the parents? Littermates? Aunts, Uncles, Cousins?
8.) What are the health clearances of the parents? Any epilepsy? Seizuring conditions? Hip Dysplasia? Elbow Dysplasia? Hereditary eye diseases?
9.) At two years of age the dog must be cleared for Hip Dysplasia ..... this is done thru an X ray from the vet (costing between $200 and $300) with the slides sent to the OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) to read. A reading by Good to Excellent must be received in order to even consider breeding the dog.
10.) Is there any bitch owner who would be interested in using your dog as stud?
11.) Would anyone be interested in buying your puppies?
12.) Would you be willing to keep the puppies if you could not sell them?
13.) Would you be willing to take your puppies back if they were ill and care for them for their lifetimes?
14.) Your dogs breeder should be involved and be your mentor. Perhaps they don't want the dog shown or bred.
15.) Where did you get the dog from? A reputable breeder or a pet store or a puppy mill?
16.) You say the dog is registered, with what club? The AKC, The UKC, The CKC or other?

Showing:

You need to go to first Basic Obedience Class.
You need to go to a Handlers Class (Usually given by people who show dogs).
Your dog has to stand still for a thorough examination by a judge without moving or minimal moving, including a thorough mouth exam and examination of his testicles.
The dog has to learn to single track, the handler (you) needs to show the dog to it's best ..... learning to gait, learning to get the dog to put it's ears up and pay attention with major major distractions.

One year is NOT old. No dog should be bred without it's Championship in the show ring or other performance venue.

It's not all fun ...... breeding dogs takes time and work, lots of it! I can guarantee you, you will not make any money ...... you will lose money ..... guaranteed!

[kendalyn]

I could very easily be wrong here but I thought it was usually the owner of the bitch that kept and cared for most of the puppies. I thought that the owner of the stud gets paid the stud fee and maybe gets one of the puppies when they are ready to go. Does the owner of the stud dog bear the same responsibility in caring for the pups as the owner of the bitch?

[SweetRuiN]

Yes, as I understand it..in -most- situations, the owners of the female who birthed the litter take on said responcibilities.

This is, of course...assuming we only stud Cole. (Keep in mind, everything is hypothetical..it depends on his showing, health, and countless issues centered around us human folk)

If he does well (or, better yet...VERY well..) I would be interesting in having my own female to breed with, who has also been shown/checked for health issues. I am willing now, and I assume I will still be then, to dedicate the time..money..love..and attention to taking on breeding my pair. This is, of course..provided I live in an area with a demand for Labs and enough Mommy's and Daddy's looking for a new pup.

And yes, I know I'll likely lose money ;) Breaking even would be a shock, lol. I love dogs, especially this breed. If we enjoy showing as much as we stand to, I think I'll definately be interested in going the next step.

However, only studding would be an option, though unlikely. If we don't intend to breed Cole ourselves, we'll definately have him "altered" in a few years. (Or sooner, depending on what shows we participate in!)

[JudyHoffman]

No, Kendalyn, you are right.

The stud dog owner usually gets a stud fee anywhere from $500 - $1500 depending on stud dog (titles, championships etc). Some may take a "pick" puppy in lieu of the $$$

Yes, the bitches owner gets to take care of all those puppies :(

The point I was trying to make was simply that having the bitch is ton's of work with a litter, health clearances, trips to the vets etc.

It is not so easy to have a nice stud and to have "bitch" owners falling all over you to breed to your stud. From what I've seen, the stud owners have a much harder time finding a female to stud their dogs too.

I got the feeling that SweetRuiN wants to get a female and breed the two dogs. This is certainly possible, but then you are looking at showing and finishing an already 1 year old male, training, showing and finishing a puppy and waiting until it is old enough to breed, staying on top of health clearances etc. There are a lot of "ifs" involved. Nothing is guaranteed.

In my mind, unless I am reading this wrong, SweetRuiN would be looking at not having a litter for at least 3 - 4 years down the road, unless she found a female from a reputable breeder who would be willing to sell her an older female that could be bred, which is doubtful. Most reputable breeders will keep their own breeding stock females.

Of course SweetRuiN can just get a female, breed the two and have puppies and sell them too without ever having to worry about any of this, but then she wouldn't be considered a responsible breeder. It's a risk. Lab's are not the healthiest of breeds on the planet right now ...... they have been so overbred that the "gene pool" is saturated with the same dogs over and over which is leading to a lot of health issues in the breed.

Does this make sense?

[SweetRuiN]

It makes absolutely sense, in fact. Also, you're absolutely right - I wouldn't be breeding for 3-4, which is exactly what I expect and would count on. Both dogs of a pair couldn't be ready until at least then, and it would give me plenty of time to prepare 100% (of what's possible to prepare, that is..) AND give me four years to be sure I want to breed. If I end up with a pair ready to breed, and no longer have the time/desire/etc, then I may or may not stud Cole. I'd likely have them both fixed, and just enjoy them both =)

However, provided everything worked out, and I still had the umph to breed the pair..I'd be as prepared as possible, and only do so if I had quite afew interested buyers lined up.

..Afterall, Cole's Father threw five litters in a row of 13 puppies...10Black/3Yellow (Never any chocolate, even though his mother was..) That's quite a few pups to take care of =)

[JudyHoffman]

It doesn't make sense to show the dog to it's championship if you do not plan on breeding or using him for stud. Why go thru the time and expense of showing then? The entry fees?

Also, where is your dog registered? Is it from a breeder? I'm just curious as where you live in the USA is major puppy mill country, altho they call themselves "The Mid-West Breeders Association" or something like that. Not to say you are, but you will need to be very very careful where these pups go to.

I got tons of call from so called breeders in the mid-west who wanted a pup from my recent litter ...... after doing checks (and people doing checks for me) I found out they were puppy mills. You need to be very very careful.

[JudyHoffman]

It's the mother that determines the size of the litter, not the sire. So it was Coles mother who threw the 13 pups, not his father :wink: !

Chocolate in labs in a recessive color. Black & Yellow mix litters is not uncommon. It can take years to get chocolate labs, even breeding two chocolates together.

Another thing you should learn, GENETICS. Now that's a lot of fun.

[SweetRuiN]

Genetics I love, Breeding is a new topic ;)

I would show Cole with full intent to breed/stud him. If I decide against it, I'll save the time/money and get him fixed and be done with it ;)

Also, I purchased him in Kentucky. AKC registered, nice breeders, aswell. Too far away to visit with them much, now, though...which is a shame, I could have used the experience ;)

Determined by the Mother? Wow, I had no idea. I was under the impression their two females both had 13 more than once, both bred with the same Sire. Musta misunderstood =)

[JudyHoffman]

Yep, you can breed a female to a male 3 times and end up with a litter of 3 puppies or even less. Both dogs needs to be tested, especially the stud for sperm count. Thyroid tests also need to be done. Sometimes a bad thyroid can interfere with conception and/or sperm count.

Well, think about it. The female drops eggs ........ if she drops 13 eggs and the male mates with the female at just the right time, and his sperm count is good, then, voila, 13 puppies is more than possible.

I bred my dog 3 times, day 9, 11 and 13 in her cycle. Each tie was 12 - 18 minutes. She produced 8 puppies. Now my problem was, well, what day did she conceive? Day 9? 11? 13? This is important to know to determine a due date right.? Well, obviously there is not way to know what day she conceived, so her due date was anywhere between 7/10 and 7/15. That makes it more difficult right? You want to be there? You don't want her to whelp without you? Do you take off work? Do you risk it and go?

So why breed 3 times? Well, first off I had to know IF she could conceive. There are no guarantees .......... and BTW, 8 puppies is normal for her breed of dog. 13 pups for a lab is considered normal I believe.

I would use your breeder via email or telephone and tell her what your plans are and if she could mentor you and perhaps help find a female to stud too. If she is well know and shows her own dogs she will have a lot of contacts. She will also have contacts for puppy buyers.

[SweetRuiN]

Excellent info and advice from everyone :D I really do appreciate all the help :D

I know the majority of their buyers are of the hunting persuasion, not show-lot, so..they're likely be quite a few still about =)

[kendalyn]

You might want to sign up for a genetics class at your local college. I just finished an advanced genetics course (Not for breeding purposes, it was a requirement for my major) and I think you would find it very educational.

[SweetRuiN]

Considering majoring in Genetics, actually. Attending an excellent medical college. Undecided, thus far.

I just never gave a thought to the scientific side of breeding ;) Little reason to, with a lab puppy bouncing around tormenting the kittens ;)

[JudyHoffman]

But of course genetics plays a very important role in breeding, especially since the goal is to "improve" the breed.

Perhaps you have a dog that is too long in the body, the ear set is a little off, the tail might curl etc. Eyes color is not exactly right. Perhaps the head shape is wrong for the breed and should be bigger/wider/smaller/longer. You need to look at the genetics of many generations of ancestors to see who carries the dominant genes and the recessive genes.

Are there most dominant genes for head shape and you want to change head shape? You need look at that. Eye color/ height etc is another area. Some things are harder to change than others and you usually do not get what you want the first time. You need to follow your pups and see them, at least in pictures to see if what you were hoping to improve or lessen has been. Then you need to take one of those pups and improve on it and so on and so forth.

That is responsible breeding. It takes years and years of research, dog shows, pedigree study to really get what you want.

Do you want to do a pure out-crossing in your breeding? This can cause some very funny results. You can get a litter of pups who look nothing like the sire or dam, but perhaps look like dogs from generations back on both sides of the pedigree.

But if you like the look of your dog, then you do line breeding. But here you need to be careful ...... how tightly linebred is your dog? You don't want to keep breeding cousins to uncle, aunts to nephews and grandparents to grandchildren. This can eventually cause major health problems, including temperment ...... but some linebreeding is good to develop a consistent look and temperment.

My dog has minimum line breeding and her recent breeding was a complete outcross to a dog totally unrelated to her. Every single puppy has her consistent head type and the fathers consistent tail length and neck length. This tells me that head type and tail type are dominant genes in this breeding. I had to look at all the females the sire bred to over the last 5 years and their puppies to see what was consistent in all of these puppies.

It just goes on and on and on and on! Coat type is another big genetic factor.

If you are planning on breeding in 3 - 4 years, it will take you that long just to study the dogs genetically and find a suitable mate for him.

[SweetRuiN]

Which is exactly my original point ;) I want to know as much as possible. Asking experienced breeders is just one step in getting ready =) It's entirely possible that, in the end, I just have a couple of 'fixed' Labs whom I adore. If that's how it works out, I'll be fine with it. However, I'm going to do all I can to attempt breeding the proper way.

Thanks again for all the tips and replies, everyone :D

[Kiger]

You could always go to a show and see what's winning in the ring. The labs that seem to be winning lately are on the chunky side - I'd call 'em fat, but that would be rude. It's best to find someone in the breed who is willing to mentor you. Handling classes are also good. Just a warning, but dog show people can be very cliquish - especially in the AKC. If you don't already know someone, it can be tough finding anyone willing to teach a "newbie".

[Roxy_GSD]

I think you should get your dog "fixed." You can still show him in obedience,rally,agililty,flyball,ect. Sorry,it's just that there are tons of billions of dogs out there already and I don't think people should add to the overpopulation. :)

[snoraven]

[quote name='SweetRuiN']

When is the best time to start training a pup for shows? Is there an age -limit- on such things, or a "it's really too late now" limit? [/quote]

The VERY best time would be right when you get the puppy. BUT I know of juniors handlers who found out about juniors and then trained their older dog to show. The best bet would be to take him to a conformation handling class and start practicing. This'll get him used to strangers touching him, learning NOT to jump on the judge, and you both will be learning the tricks of the trade.

[quote]
Are there any traits puppies can show that suggest showing is/isn't a good idea? I know Cole seems to have puppy ADD, but he's extremely intelligent and enthusiastic.
[/quote]

All puppies are excitable. Even my 3 yr old golden puppy! Proper training that will kick the habit of jumping or running away from you will be beneficial. If he loves treats and wants to please you, you can sure as heck try your best. And let him warm up to it too. It usually take thems a few classes/matches/or shows to get used to the fact that this is where its work time and that they have to listen to you.

[quote]
Outside of attending shows, reading as much as possible, and visiting websites...is there any other ways to learn as much as I can about the art of showing/breeding and my babe's breed?
[/quote]

Labradors are very versatile. In order to fully understand his breed, just going to conformation shows will not suffice. Start going to obedience, agility, and field trials as well. Watch how the breed functions in motion and instincts. And of course study the standard. All this together will give you a better idea on how to judge your own dogs conformation and your peers' dogs. This will help you decide on who's dog REALLY deserves a win or not.

[quote]
Does anyone have an personal tips/advice for a newbie?
[/quote]
Talk to breeders, handlers, exhibitors, owners, trainers. Read books, and watch handlers in the ring to help with your handling skills. And always, make showing FUN for Cole! And Fun for you too!

[quote]
...also, abit off-topic. After showing (provided Cole isn't too old) I would like to *look into* breeding, possibly. I have the time, dedication, room, and passion for the breed that is requried...short of reading, speaking with breeders, and attending shows..I've been unable to find any further infomation. Any tips? It's something I -might- be interested in, later. If not with Cole, then my next =)
[quote]

When ever someone says they want to breed their dog, the question always will be 'Why?'. Why do you want to, why do you think your dog is worthy, Will this be beneficial for the breed all-around. In Health, In conformation, in temperment. Is the reason why you want to breed because you find something undesirable arising in the breed and you want a chance to fix it? Or is because you think it would be fun and just want to see how his offspring will look.
After said all this, your best bet will be to see how well he does in the ring before you do anything.

Do you think you could send me or post a picture of Cole? Did you get him from a show breeder or a field type breeder? Not many field-bred Labradors show well in conformation unless at a specialty and then entered in the Field-Bred class. Well, we'll see how he does.

Oh and if you DO decide to fix him, spayed and neutered dogs are allowed to show in AKC sanctioned matches as well. Matches are shows with no records points, in otherwords, you can't earn a title from a match. But, you can win alot of ribbons!