Raw diets... the other side

[imported_Cassie]

I can understand your point horsefeathers, I do see alot of posts in many different forums where the BARF diet is a cure for every ailment from health to behavior problems, hyper hound - feed BARF, that will slow him down! lazy dog - feed BARF that will add to his vigor and make him a robust playmate! :lol: ...in my area of the world the BARF diet is not popular at all....most people have never heard of it. I find that most dogs heath problems come from people over lovin' their dogs...over feeding them by giving them too many treats, and not good treats...we're talking chips, chocolate chip cookies, hot dogs, greasy fried foods, pizza....alot of people are killing their dogs with kindness. :o
A good diet is a bases of a healthy dog...but, the best diets in the world are not going to counter act all the junk that alot of people give their dogs in addition to their regular food. I am a firm believer in variety in foods...but,a healthy variety...I have no problem giving my dogs left overs, as long as they are healthy left overs.
I know what you are saying..too many people jump on the band wagon and state that the reason for all our dogs current health problems is due to their not eating their natural diet...people seem to forget our household dogs evolved into scavengers from wolves...wild domestic dogs which still roam this earth do not go hunting live game for their next meal - most village scavenger dogs do not usually hunt live animals - in one documentay I watched these dogs are hungry, yet, they walk through the villages with chickens and don't even give them a second look ....wild domestic dogs will populate dumps, garbage areas, backs of restaurants etc. you will rarely find a wild domestic dog running through the woods hunting game. If you watch a documentary which shows any African village or india etc. you will see wild domestic dogs roaming the streets...these dogs do not belong to the people...they are wild scavengers which have taken up residence in villages and eating all the garbage the humans toss out....or waiting by the fishing ports for the fishermen to gut and dehead the fish and throw them to the dogs....the dogs and rats and other scavengers all live a simular life. In fact, alot of these village people despise dogs..they consider them to be dirty and if a dog happened to get into a persons house, the house is said to be unclean...they look at dogs as we look at rats. :o
I can completely understand your point of view horsefeathers...in fact, one of our clients at the grooming shop has a dog which is now 21 years old...(we confirmed this with the owners Vet, we did not believe it!) this dog has lived on leftover foods, and the cheapest brand dog food possible...for the last few years it has been fed "ole roy" dog food and is doing well...no health problems at all...makes ya wonder.

[mydogroxy]

[quote]So have humans, but why is the same argument never used to promote raw feeding in humans? Using this logic, it would be the "natural" thing to do. [/quote]

i'm not jumping in on this discussion, but there is actually a growing movement (relatively small) for humans to eat only raw food.[/quote]

[Aroura]

Just some food for thought, I've heard of many dogs choking to death on kibble, kibble also increases the risk of bloat and I've heard cases of so called good dog foods that have been contaminated or shown not to be nutritionally complete, even to the extent of causing deaths all around the world. Every thing you do in life carrys a danger, you're worried your dog may choke on a splintered bone so you feed him kibble and he chokes on that, or dies of bloat, people can't assume that because they are feeding kibble that it also doesn't carry risks, and there are cover ups about them also. I've weighed up the pros and cons of feeding raw and decided that the pros out wiegh the cons so all my dogs are thriving on raw. I do beleive though that everyone has a right to their own decisions and although I'm an advocate of raw, if some one decides to feed kibble then thats fine by me so long as its not the cheapest bag on the shelf. If someones dog has a problem, yes, in many cases I do encourage them to try BARF, not because I swear it will fix all problems, but because I have seen alot of good results and it does often help. I make no promises, merely suggest they give it a try.

I just thought that while we're on the topic of the dangers of BARF I'd quickly point out some of the dangers of kibble, after all, there are two sides to every coin.

Alpha, how did you cut the bones? I've heard that cutting bones up can cause them to splinter or lodge in the throaght, is it possible that that could have happend?

[Horsefeathers!]

[quote name='Aroura']Just some food for thought, I've heard of many dogs choking to death on kibble, kibble also increases the risk of bloat [/quote]

Actually, the latest Purdue study found no higher incidence of bloat in kibble fed dogs vs. raw fed ones :). A groomer on one of my lists recently lost her raw fed dog to bloat.

You've "heard of" many dogs choking on kibble. Do you actually truthfully know any personally? I personally know dogs who have been harmed in one fashion or another from raw feeding. I am leary of anything people "heard of" as it smacks of urban legend. Of course, ANYTHING is possible and I'm not suggesting that a dog couldn't choke to death on kibble. I'm only pointing out that I've not met one who did, or seen one come through our vet clinic who did in the five years I've been there. Of course, a dog, person, or anything could drown on their own saliva, or actually die running with scissors, but I've not met anyone it happened to. Still, I've "heard of" it happening.

To me the "dangers of kibble" lie more in the content than the way it's handled. Besides, I'm not here to promote a kibble diet, so it's a moot point, anyway. It doesn't have to be one way or the other and STILL no one yet has been able to show me any evidence that feeding a COOKED natural diet is detrimental in any way. It doesn't have to be raw OR kibble.

[imported_Cassie]

[quote]It doesn't have to be one way or the other and STILL no one yet has been able to show me any evidence that feeding a COOKED natural diet is detrimental in any way. It doesn't have to be raw OR kibble[/quote]

This is in a book I have regarding feeding raw meat vs cooked meat.

cooked meat contains; damaged amino acids/protein, damaged vitamins and minerals. Questionable bioavailability. Mutated trans-fats. No enzymes or antioxdants.

Even when I read my solid gold brochure they recommend adding digestive enzymes to thier food....it states in the brochure..."D-enzymes facilitate the absorption of (or unlock) the nutritional components within the diet. Enzymes are vitally important for numerous processes within the body and are found abundantly in raw foods. However, cooking destroys enzymes, so supplementation is advised for pets who consume cooked foods.

[Horsefeathers!]

I have a chart somewhere that shows the difference between raw and cooked (not burnt) meat. It's been a long time since I saw it and I'll try to dig it up, but the general idea was that it wasn't as huge a difference as some of the "experts" say in their books. It'll bug me all night because I can't remember where I put it, or rather how I filed it. :oops:

Still, to try to be objective (which is my whole intention whether I always succeed or not), even RAW diets are usually chock full of supplements. I have no problem with the idea of supplementation.

[TDG]

[quote name='Cassie']
This is in a book I have regarding feeding raw meat vs cooked meat.

cooked meat contains; damaged amino acids/protein, damaged vitamins and minerals. Questionable bioavailability. Mutated trans-fats. No enzymes or antioxdants.[/quote]

that is a pretty broad statement and easily misunderstood by anyone who does not know much about nutrition in general and has a halfway solid knowledge of dietetics. cassie, i didn't say this meaning that [b]you[/b] do not know, i mean "anyone" as in "anyone who comes across that particular statement taken out of context".

yes, heat alters some nutrients and destroys or damages some of them, but it's far from the truth that cooked meat is of questionable bioavailability and devoid of nutrients.

if it were true, any dog would keel over from malnutrition after a very short time if it never ate any raw meat, since the body uses protein not only for energy but also for building and maintaining muscle, hair, bone and organs and supporting other vital functions. about 50% of the dry body mass of a dog consists of protein which needs to be maintained.

whether nutrients in any type of meat are destroyed by cooking depends on the cooking process itself. merely denaturing/coagulating protein will not make it useless to the body. a prolonged cooking process and/or high temperatures will though, while short, gentle cooking can often even make meat easier to digest by breaking down some of the bonds between individual amino acid chains. scrambled eggs vs. hard boiled eggs would be a suitable comparison.

if you do not overcook meat at excessive temperatures, but only blanch it until it is "just done", you are not going to destroy much of the nutrient content but do a lot for food safety. this may not be as much of a concern if you can hunt or butcher your own meat, or buy from a local, completely trustworthy source - but personally i would [b]not[/b] trust anything that comes from a regular slaughterhouse/meat packing plant. i've seen the insides of some of them and was not exactly happy, especially after being used to european standards and then seeing the difference here in the US.

but i digress... so back on track.

add fruits and veggies (pulped raw or lightly steamed/blanched) and some [i]freshly ground[/i] flax seed (which is the best source of omega 3s aside from fish oil) and you are not going to do any worse by your dog than if you feed an entirely raw diet.

fruits and vegetables are much more important sources of vitamins, enzymes and antioxidants than meat, but only really contribute if they are fresh and haven't been transported halfway across the world, sitting in warehouses and then in supermarkets for days. sometimes fresh-frozen produce is even the higher quality choice, because nutrients are preserved that way. if you want a cheap source of really fresh enzyme-dense material, grow your own wheat or barley grass or sprout alfalfa, barley or other grains.

of course highly processed kibble is an entirely different chapter. most commercial products are made from already highly processed ingredients. :drinking:

[imported_Cassie]

Thank you TDG. :wink:

It's amazing; I have learned more on this board than from most of the books I have read. I find if you are reading a book in favor of feeding raw...well, they make you feel like a criminal for even thinking about cooking food or feeding kibble. :o

[Aroura]

Well TDG and Horsefeathers, you've got me there on the lightly cooked idea. Though I will still feed raw I do agree that a lightly cooked diet, if balanced, is far better than most (nearly every) kibble. My question is, seeing as that many of the vitamins and minerals dogs need are actually within the bone itself, how do you get your dog adequete vitamins and minerals without artificial supplementation?

One thing that I recently learned and found interesting, that I thought I would share, is that even ground bone cleans dogs teeth, its the micro fibres in the bone which clean the teeth just as much as it is the knawing. I found that interesting because its hard to get chicken carcass from the butcher here as they grind it all up into pet mince (only a dollar per kilo). This is great stuff, because not only does it have the meat, bone and some of the innards (liver, heart, lung etc) but now I know it also cleans the teeth!!! I wouldn't go by this alone though, if I was worried the dogs may choke on a bone and so ground all their meaty bones up I would still give them a large recreational bone a couple of times a week so they didn't miss out on any of the other goodies of chewing bones! :D

[TDG]

[quote name='Aroura']My question is, seeing as that many of the vitamins and minerals dogs need are actually within the bone itself, how do you get your dog adequete vitamins and minerals without artificial supplementation?[/quote]

it's not as much vitamins that are in the bone as minerals, primarily calcium. calcium is needed by the body for various things, but it is also required to balance out the phosphorus ratio of meat and other high-phosphorus foods. if dogs don't get enough calcium, the body depeletes its own stock and withdraws it from the skeleton.

if you feed a highly varied diet made from truly fresh ingredients (not just fresh as in "fresh from the store", since goods are often transported far), your dog is very likely to get along fine without extra supplementation.

by paying attention to what is in which food, you can easily establish a balance. here's a "hot list list" with a few foods that contain a lot of nutrients:

[b]vitamins[/b]:
- vitamin C: green leafy vegetables, carrots, berries, tomatoes etc.
- B vitamin complex: liver, brewers yeast
- biotin: beef liver, brewers yeast, cheese, eggs, chicken breast meat, salmon
- choline: egg yolks, beef, wheat germ, oats
- inositol: wheat germ, brewers yeast, liver, brown rice, oats, vegetables
- vitamin A/beta carotene: cod liver oil, liver, egg-yolk, carrots, dark green leafy vegetables, yellow/orange fruits
- vitamin D: cod liver oil, fatty fish, liver, egg yolk, dark leafy vegetables
- vitamin E: whole grains, wheat germ and wheat germ oil, avocado, beef, seafood, apples, carrots, celery

[b]minerals[/b]:
- calcium: dairy products (cottage cheese!), blackstrap molasses, fish
- chloride: kelp, olives, tomatoes, celery
- magnesium: dairy products, fish, meat and seafood, apples, blackstrap molasses, avocados, bananas, dark leafy vegetables, whole grains
- phosphorus: meat, poultry, fish, eggs, bones - most dogs get too much instead of too little, often resulting in kidney damage
- potassium: fruit, vegetables,whole grains, blackstrap molasses, fish
- sodium: present in many foods, also best avoided in high amounts
- sulfur: eggs, garlic, lettuce, cabbage

[b]trace elements[/b]:
- boron: honey, fresh fruit, green leafy vegetables
- chromium: eggs, beef, whole grains, brewer's yeast, blackstrap molasses
- cobalt: vegetables
- copper: whole grain, liver, blackstrap molasses
- iodine: eggs, seafood, kelp and other seaweed
- iron: meat, poultry, fish, grains, fruits, vegetables
- manganese: avocados, eggs, brown rice, whole grains, leafy greens
- molybdenum: spinach, liver, whole grains, dark green leafy vegetables
- selenium: whole grains
- silicon: oats, alfalfa, leafy green vegetables, whole grains
- zinc: muscle meat, poultry, seafood, grains, eggs, seeds, brewer's yeast

so if you make sure your dog's diet includes some liver, eggs, brewers yeast (if it is tolerated, some dogs are allergic), wheat germ, kelp or fish and a good assortment of vegetables on a regular basis, you have it pretty much covered.

[Aroura]

Thanks for that, is it ok if I copy that into my web page?

Just a few things I'd like to add, any meat with fat in it contains vitamin E, and tomatos and Garlic contain selenium :fadein:

[Horsefeathers!]

TDG, I love you :cry: !! I want to have your baby. Or you can have mine. What a breath of fresh air you are!!

[TDG]

aroura, by all means, feel free to use it. i'm always hoping that some people might read it and will stop being afraid to add some fresh things to their dog's food, even if they feed only kibble otherwise.

my own dog gets about 2/3 high quality kibble and 1/3 fresh food (meats blanched unless i know it's for example organic or raised/butchered by someone i know). i would probably feed a completely homemade diet if it weren't for the fact that i live in a large city and am horrible about keeping my fridge stocked and organized.

horsefeathers - only if it's a four-legged baby. :lol: i can take care of my dog and cats, but i'm not sure that i'd have the patience to be a human mom. lol

[Aroura]

[quote name='Horsefeathers!']TDG, I love you :cry: !! I want to have your baby. Or you can have mine. What a breath of fresh air you are!![/quote]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Thanks TDG, its almost impossible to find complete lists like that these days, all the ones I find only have the basics listed, as well as listing alot of grains (instead of other things that also contain the same vitamins) which makes it hard seeing as my dogs don't get grains! (It makes my boxer more aggressive and makes her fart and have bad breath, the poodle is allergic and one of the others puts on weight to easily!)

[Malamum]

TDG, thanks for that info, it was excellent. I have printed it out to be able to refer to it easily.

While Indy doesn't get absolutley everthing you have listed he does get at least one or two things from each category. So in all I feel he is getting a pretty balanced diet.

There were a few things you listed that caught my eye so I may start adding them.

[imported_Cassie]

Speaking of holistic ideals...I know this is a little off the dog related topic...but, does anyone here ever visit Dr. Andrew Weil's website...he is my holistic god... :lol:

[Kiger]

Meal is considered better. The reasoning behind this is that meat represents real meat with moisture (70%) before processing - which weighs more then grain and so gets it placed first on the ingredient list. By the time they get through processing, all that moisture is sucked out which shrinks it below the grain weight - so you're left with really a grain based diet. Meal already has little to no moisture content and won't shrink below the grain weight after processing.
Meal (in this case chicken): The dry rendered product from clean poultry flesh and skin with or without bone. Does not contain feathers heads, feet or entrails. If from a particular source it may state so (i.e. chicken meal, turkey meal etc).
Seeing meat + meal as the first two ingredients is good, but meat by itself tells me they are trying to pull a fast one on the consumer.

P.S. - I think Canidae is better then Wellness which has a lot of grain in it.

[TDG]

[quote]Canidae is a better food than Wellness. If you break down the ingredients in each and look carefully at the first five (the most crucial), you will notice that in Canidae, 3 of the top 5 are from a meat source as compared to Wellness which only has 2.[/quote]

it's not really that simple, since the dog food companies don't have to disclose amounts but only list ingredients in descending order by weight. you have no real way of knowing and can only assume that the first ingredient is most likely present in a higher (raw) weight proportion than the second and so on.

[b]but[/b]

what if the first and second (and maybe third etc.) ingredient are present in equal amounts? what if the first ingredient makes up 23% by weight, the second, third and fourth 20% each? or the first makes up 50% and the second 25% etc.? unless the manufacturer discloses it, there is no way we know.

it is also not true that the [b]first 5[/b] are necessarily the main ingredients of a food. i've seen brands that have only 3 main ingredients, and others have 10 - it depends on the formulation of the food. you are far better off gauging the main ingredients by looking for the first source of fat or oil on the list. anything listed [b]before[/b] that, and including it, are the main components of the food. also pay attention to the guaranteed analysis, especially moisture content. canidae contains 24% protein, 14.5% fat, 4% fiber and 10% moisture, while wellness (super 5 chicken or lamb) contains 22% protein, 12% fat, 5% fiber and 11% moisture. if you really want a fair comparison, you'd have to do one converting the foods to a dry matter basis, but even then you are comparing 2 slightly different formulations.

another concern is the type of meat or meat meals used. meat meals are generally ground from meat including bones. if fresh meat is added, it's at the discretion of the manufacturer if it's only meat, or meat with skin and bones is used. wellness for example states that their super 5 lamb mix contains deboned chicken, so the weight you have there is chicken meat and possibly skin, but no bones taking up any volume. this is an issue that needs to be taken into consideration when you look at the calcium and phosphorus levels in a food - e.g. high phosphorus levels put stress on the kidneys and might cause progressive kidney damage, especially in animals predisposed genetically.

formulation is important when it comes to food sensivity issues. yes, a formula with several different meats and grains is more likely to cover the entire spectrum of essential and non essential amino acids, but if a dog can't tolerate chicken for example, wellness super 5 mix lamb is clearly the way to go.

then there is the fact that canidae contains yeast, which is a highly nutritious supplement, but many dogs can not tolerate it.

if a dog gains or loses weight on any particular food, you need to adjust the amount. some foods are just more calorie dense than others, you can't just continue feeding e.g. 2 cups of food B you just switched to if it is a completely different formulation than product A, of which you've fed 2 cups daily for a certain timespan. having to feed less generally indicates a more digestible product.

personally i do not like to feed wellness much anymore because of the effects it has on some dog's teeth (tremendous tartar buildup). canidae on the other hand seems a little bland for my dog, he's not much interested in it if it is "kibble only" without any addition like yogurt, veggies etc.

overall it does little good to compare brands of relatively similar quality (and granted, both canida and wellness are top of the line) without taking into consideration how well an individual dog does on each of them. personally i rotate between foods simply to bring a bit more variety into my dog's diet, but also to see how he does on different ones. if i don't keep trying out different ones, i won't know which works best for [b]my[/b] dog.

i've already found out that he doesn't do as well on low-fat formulas for example, while other dogs don't do well at all on higher-fat formulas or generally foods that are too "rich". for us so far innova has been the food with the best results which we keep coming back to, but there are a few other brands i'd love to give a try to get a feel for them.

[Horsefeathers!]

I just bought my first bag of Canidae. An incredible stroke of luck as I happened to be in the store I buy my Wellness from to buy more Wellness. This store has never stocked Canidae before (no one here does), but one of the managers there happens to order Canidae for his dogs and hadn't taken it home yet (it was just laying in the front of the store). He sold me one bag and told me he could order more if I wanted to keep feeding it. I also bought several cans of wet Canidae just as a "supplement." I'll report back in on the "time for a change" thread.