About "breeders"

[Guest Anonymous]

People out there call themselves "breeders" when they really aren't. They
think that because they have a litter every now and then it means they
are a breeder. They have a litter with the intent of keeping one or two for
there showing career. The rest of the pups go to other homes. Well, the
dictionary says,"breeder: one that breeds : an animal or plant kept for
propagation". Sounds to me like these folks are not keeping these animals
for propagation. So lets have these people stop calling themselves
breeders because they are NOT. They make people believe that if they
do not do it how they do (when they aren't even true breeders by
definition), they are PM's and BYB's!

Now, one other thing. I have seen auctions being condemned and the
people selling that way. I personally have reserved my opinion on the
subject, but have thought a lot about it. Horses, cows, pigs, and other
animals are sold at auctions all the time. I also know there are shows of
horses, cows, chickens. I've seen the awards for them. Dogs get awards
too for showing and being the top dog. What makes the dogs a different
class? Because they live in our house and chickens, pigs and horses
don't? A breeder friend of mine in Washington state actually refers to her
dogs as "livestock". That to me means there is no affection. She saw
them just like you would see a cow or pig or whatever. Yet, a dog is an
animal just like they are. We just seem to have more of a affectionate
feeling for them. I guess this is what seems to make them a class above
other animals. Yes? And therefore to be sold and bred on a different level?


I would very much like to hear what others have to say about this subject.

[Horsefeathers!]

I have several thoughts on this, but my first thought is that the shelters aren't generally overflowing with homeless horses, cattle and chickens. I don't see very many horses, cattle and chickens rummaging through dumpsters and garbage bins and roaming loose on the streets. However, we are overrun with dogs and cats and there aren't nearly enough resources to care for them, so I am one who believes it is irresponsible to bring more "pets" into the world. Comparing livestock breeding to dog breeding is kind of like comparing apples and oranges.

[Malamum]

I would classify anyone that breeds an animal as a "breeder". However as we all know there are responsible and irresponsible breeders out there so what class each breeder falls into is defined by their actions. (we all listed on the other topic what we considered responsible and irresponsible breeders so I am not going to go into that again.)

I agree 100% with HF on the comparison of auctioning dogs and cats to livestock such as horses and cows etc.

I'm sure statistically the amount of people who buy a cow on impulse and then dump it because it doesn't suit them any more are minuscule compared to the phenomenal rate it happens with dogs and cats.

[DogPaddle]

Call it what you want but churning out scads of pets when shelters are overflowing without doing vet checks, certifications, and breeding for the betterment of the breed is IMO wrong. Labels are just that, it doesn't matter what you call it.

[DogPaddle]

Darkmystery - I repeat from the prev Backyard Breeders & Puppymill thread:

[quote]Which of these statements do you have a problem with:
Quote:
1. Not going to make a profit.
2. Breed rarely.
3. Are concerned with the betterment of the breed.
4. Are very selective as to who their pups go to.
5. Do all nec. health checks.
6. ARE THE PEOPLE WHO MANY OF US LOOK TO GET OUR PETS FROM.
7. Spend plenty of time with their dogs and treat them like valued members of their household and produce well socialized pups. [/quote]

Which of these things do you think are wrong? And why do you think this?

[Guest Mutts4Me]

[quote name='darkmystery'] Well, the
dictionary says,"breeder: one that breeds : an animal or plant kept for
propagation". Sounds to me like these folks are not keeping these animals
for propagation. So lets have these people stop calling themselves
breeders because they are NOT. [/quote]

Whoa, wait. How exactly are you taking this definition, then?

This is the definition given by Merriam Webster ( [url]www.m-w.com[/url] ):

Main Entry: breed

[DogPaddle]

These are Roo's responses to Dark Mystery's posts in this and other threads in the breeding forum which she can't post here due to board problems, just thought I'd repost them here in case DM doesn't check the other section.

[quote]
I am sorry i have had to put this in everything about dogs section and not breeding section but i cant log in

But i feel the need to address Dark Mystery's posts

(Yes all of them )
so firstly.
this one.
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:21 am Post subject: Help! A bad situation.

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I am in a bad situation. My dog had some puppies. I took the pups in for a health check less than a week before I let the pups go. They all had a clean bill of health. The day the people came to get the pup we all saw blood come from her rear. I offered them a full refund or $100 to take it to the vet. They chose the $100 and take it to the vet in my city. The vet said it had colitis and gave them some antibiotics and they deciced to take the puppy home with them which they live out of state. I told them I would pay for drugs to treat the pup. Well, the pup is worse and they took it to the vet again.

They took the pup which they knew was sick, even taking it to the vet before they left town on my dime. Since they took a puppy with the full knowledge it was sick, how responsible am I? I offered them a refund of the money they had given me and they turned it down. I did not try to talk them into taking the puppy or anything close. I feel bad about the pup, but do not know how much I owe them since they knew it was sick. I guarantee the pups but what about in this case? Help.

AN ILL OR EVEN OFF COLOUR PUPPY SHOULD NOT LEAVE THE NEST UNTILL IT IS 100% how responsible are you? TOTALLY.
Oh and what happened to the puppy?????????????

Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:07 am Post subject: "Backyard breeding" & "puppymills"

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I just have to say that some people really
go overboard with the backyard breeder and puppymill thing. Not
everyone can have acres of land and a actual "kennel" facility. You
can build a nice area in a backyard. You could even in a garage. In a
garage it is even indoors and they might have cooling in summer and
heat in winter! Even an official "kennel" facility can be ill kept.
Just having an official facility does not guarantee fantastic
animals.

News flash, even people competing in Crufts and other big
shows have been charged with animal abuse and p*** poor environmental
conditions. And for some reason, some people think you have to show
in order to be legit and have good dogs. People in Crufts have had
winning dogs, but do not take proper care of them. Then there could
be someone who has dogs in there backyard, loves them, cleans, gives
them fresh water in a clean green free bowl, takes them to the vet,
gives them heat in winter, brushes them if they need to be and you
call them "backyard breeders". It isn't right or fair. Maybe some do
not breed on a grand scale and do not need a complete "kennel"
facility.

Breeding dogs for profit is another issue. Well,those that do
have an official "kennel", they are running an official business.
They have a tax ID #, and are registered with AKC! And here in the
US, business is for profit...capitalism.

Think of a restaurant. Some are big & fancy and some are a little dive
mom and pop place. Does that mean the dive restaurant is evil and no
one should eat there? Only eat at the fancy restaurant? No.

Some have a fancier facility for there dogs than others. That does not mean don't buy from the place that has dogs in the backyard. And MANY kennels breed more than one breed too. They have a good number of dogs. Hummm. Doesn't that make them a puppymill?


Ok. So, What you are calling "breeders" really sounds more like
a non-profit organization. Those people really aren't breeders. These
are people that every so often mate there dogs! It really isn't to make
dogs for people to own and enjoy. People should be able to own a certain
breed and of course you try and put them in good homes. A spanish
inquisition is not necessary. Like I said, people have really gone crazy
throwing out these "backyard breeder" and "puppymill" labels. People
that do are acting as if they are higher than thou &
self-rightous. People put down others just to give themselves a feeling
of being better than.

Now, there are puppymills out there. You know, the ones that do not give
health care to there dogs, crowd them, give them no heat or cooling,
no love and they live in cages all the time nor nearly all of the time.

The label backyard breeders was made up by the higher than thou's
that realized not all were not puppymills but still were not as high up as
what you laid out in your message. So, you had to come up with some
kind of label for those not as good as you.

What you laid out as "breeders" aren't even breeders in the first place!
They shouldn't even call themselves breeders!!!

Yes it is commonly known that not all dog owners be they show breeders, commercial breeders, BYB, puppy farmers or mills do not give their dogs the correct care and housing that they need to, the same can be said about many many pet homes. Usually in the pet homes section it is due to ignorance, i am afraid in the breeding section it is due to no ethics or morals.
And it is also true that some TOP BREEDERS are also puppy farmers and commercial breeders who breed many other breeds to finance their top dogs.
I assume from your ranting post that someone has called you a BYB!
Could it be the person who owned the puppy in the post above?
Many people think breeding dogs is easy money, fun, and do not even
know or understand about breeds, type, standards, breed problems, responsibility of the breeder, the stud dog owner or anything else for that matter. THESE ARE THE PEOPLE I CALL BACKYARD BREEDERS,
but that is my opinion
I think i will agree with you that the term BYB is thrown around alot.
But i will also tell you that most purebred dogs that end up in shelters come from those breeders. WHY? because they are not careful enough who buys their pups, they offer no aftercare, support , they just want the money end of conversation......I know where ALL the dogs i have bred over the years are, i know when they die, i know when they are ill, i have only ever had to take one back, and that was due to circumstances beyond the owners control.
In the pack that goes out with the pups i do always have these words written in, PLEASE REMEMBER YOU MAY HAVE PURCHASED THIS PUPPY FROM US BUT IT IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE ONE OF OUR BABIES, WE NEED CONSTANT UNDATES, PHOTO'S. IF AT ANY TIME YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PUPPY, BE IT BIG OR SMALL RING US ANYTIME DAY OR NIGHT, THAT IS WHAT WE ARE HERE FOR.
I wouldn't call myself a self-righteous show breeder, i would call myself a responsible ethical moral breeder who cares about what they breed and where they go. I also have no time for BYB who will not learn or listen and do not care (although they often think they do)


Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 11:09 am Post subject: About "breeders"

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People out there call themselves "breeders" when they really aren't. They
think that because they have a litter every now and then it means they
are a breeder. They have a litter with the intent of keeping one or two for
there showing career. The rest of the pups go to other homes. Well, the
dictionary says,"breeder: one that breeds : an animal or plant kept for
propagation". Sounds to me like these folks are not keeping these animals
for propagation. So lets have these people stop calling themselves
breeders because they are NOT. They make people believe that if they
do not do it how they do (when they aren't even true breeders by
definition), they are PM's and BYB's!

Now, one other thing. I have seen auctions being condemned and the
people selling that way. I personally have reserved my opinion on the
subject, but have thought a lot about it. Horses, cows, pigs, and other
animals are sold at auctions all the time. I also know there are shows of
horses, cows, chickens. I've seen the awards for them. Dogs get awards
too for showing and being the top dog. What makes the dogs a different
class? Because they live in our house and chickens, pigs and horses
don't? A breeder friend of mine in Washington state actually refers to her
dogs as "livestock". That to me means there is no affection. She saw
them just like you would see a cow or pig or whatever. Yet, a dog is an
animal just like they are. We just seem to have more of a affectionate
feeling for them. I guess this is what seems to make them a class above
other animals. Yes? And therefore to be sold and bred on a different level?


I would very much like to hear what others have to say about this subject.

People who you say are not breeders, obviously breed to keep something else to show, they are obviously trying to breed to the STANDARD, trying to improve............ they are the GUARDIANS OF THE BREED, they are the CUSTODIANS they try to protect the breed from irresponsible, ignorant people who dont know what they are talking about andare not interested in learning.

As to auctioning of dogs, in this country UK, it is against the Kennel Clubs code of ethics. I for one agree with that. Why? because i think it is imoral
and unethical. There are plenty of dogs in shelters and breed rescues throughout the world, and if IDIOTS would stop pumpimg out puppies and selling them to anyone this may stop a bit of the sadness inflicted on the
general public and the caring people out there.
WAS THAT SELF RIGHTEOUS FOR YOU :lol: [/quote]

[Rosebud]

:-?

All I have to say is that I have nothing to say to darkmystery.

My feelings and views on the subject of breeding/breeders is thoroughly explained in the Back Yard Breeders and Puppy Mills thread.

:angel:

[abker17]

I think most off us gave u our opinions in the Puppy Mills and BYB's thread. :-? Personally I think u are just here to cause trouble. :-?



Dogs are companions not livestock. They were bred to work for us and with us. They are intelligent and anyone who says they are "livestock" needs to open thier eyes and pull thier head out of thier a**. :evil: Sorry if that's a bit harsh but I'm tired of u coming around here and causeing so much uproar. :evil:

[Guest Anonymous]

Hello,

I NEVER came onto this board to cause problems or fights. I merely wanted to state that I did not feel it was fair to call people BYB or PM's.
I never attacked anyone. Yet you attack me. You get mean and nasty.
I believe I was even called "hostile". Read these last few posts to me,
they are hostile.

I only wanted to make my statement. I really didn't even need any responses to it because that's all it was. Now, what I wrote about
the auctions, I did seek resonses.

[Guest Mutts4Me]

[quote name='darkmystery']I NEVER came onto this board to cause problems or fights. I merely wanted to state that I did not feel it was fair to call people BYB or PM's.[/quote]

Okay... Assuming that you're being genuine here, then why don't you tell us why you don't think it's fair to call people BYB's or PM's?

Do you think it's right to breed dogs left and right? Not take the parents to the vet, not take the puppies to vets, not give the puppies the special attention they need? To sell to anyone willing to pay the money, regardless of whether or not they know [b]anything[/b] about how to care for a dog, and specifically the breed of dog they're getting from you?

Because those are the things that most people are upset about. If you'd read all the responses to your several posts, then you would know what we were talking about, and why we were getting upset.

Also, I'd like to point out that BYB's and PM's are not necessarily the same thing (can be, though). A lot of us have varying definitions of BYB's, and some are more lenient than others on labelling them as such. There [b]are[/b] people who just keep two same-breed dogs in a kennel in their backyard until they breed, then sell the pups, and put the parents back in together in the backyard. This is where the term "backyard breeder" comes from. Some people, that some people here may classify as BYB's care about their dogs, keep them inside, take them to the vet, etc. But they still may not do the proper checks (all of which have been deatiled in your previous thread), and that is irresponsible or them. See, when you purposely create a life, you should be willing to take full responsibility of that life, be it human or animal.

Now most people have the same definition of a Puppy Mill. It's some place that has several litters of puppies available at once. They may or may not be of the same breed. But {b]think about it[/b] before you get defensive, okay? If you have 25+ puppies at the Same Time, there is No Way you're going to be able to spend the individual time with each and every puppy that it needs and deserves at such a young age! Also, why would someone have that many dogs, and that many puppies? Because they want money. So do you think those 25+ puppies are going to be taken to the vet? Hmm, No. Imagine that vet bill.

Now tell me, if you will, how it is unfair to get raging mad at a Puppy Mill, everytime a new one is brought to our attention?

Darkmystery, I can kind of understand your frustration about the whole BYB thing, okay? I have a friend who breeds her Chihuahuas, and I cringe to think of her being labelled as a BYB because she loves her dogs, takes wonderful care of them, etc. But she doesn't really breed for the right reasons, I don't think, and she doesn't do all the proper checks. That's where the difficulty lies in placing the BYB on people, but before you get too upset, [b]please[/b] consider why we get sooo upset about irresponsible breeding.

Millions of puppies and kittens, dogs and cats, are euthanizied (murdered, slain, destroyed, put to sleep, slaughtered - it's REAL, not just a word) because there are sooo many dogs out there already. Some were "accidents," but a lot were from breeders who didn't do the proper checks before breeding and placing their dogs. [b]That[/b] is why people get so upset.

Amber

[Guest Anonymous]

I am indeed genuine. I never wanted everyone to get so heated.
I merely wanted to say I just thought it wasn't nice to label
people. Many of the breeders out there really do love there
dogs.


I didn't realize when I posted that what I had to say was going to
insite nasty, cruel postings. I just thought I would state what I thought
about the labels. I am a novice on the board. I've never posted on forums
before and obviously misjudged what subjects were acceptable to speak
about and what aren't. Or at least, my side of the subject.

I love animals and harm none (man or beast).

[Malamum]

I posted to your response in everything about dogs... let me copy and past and I'll put it here too.

[Malamum]

Darkmystery. I don't believe that anyone has been overly nasty they have just stated why they believe your take on breeding is wrong (myself included).

In my opinion there are varying degrees of responsibility in breeders.

You have your very responsible breeders who do everything right (meet all the criteria we have listed in the other threads) lets call them white. Then you have your totally abhorrent puppy millers who abuse dogs through neglect and we'll call them black. Now there is also lots of backyard breeders out there who fall somewhere in between these two categories so we'll call them shades of gray (and of course some are obviously dark gray and others are only light gray).

From what I can gather from your posts I would say you fall into this gray area. You don't abuse your dogs in any shape or form but neither do you take all the necessary steps to be a responsible breeder.

You may not by intent harm any dogs but as a breeder you are 100% responsible for any and every pup that you bring into the world.

What about the pup that ends up with severe hip displaysia two years down the track because you thought the two dogs you bred were healthy enough and didn't require testing for HD? (this can apply to any genetic condition I just used HD as an example)

What about the pup that ends up in a shelter and is PTS a few years later because the family you sold it to decide they don't really want a dog anymore, or it

[Guest Anonymous]

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:05 am Post subject:

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I do understand ALL the posts here. I see your side just fine. I never
said anything was wrong with your view.

<<What about the pup that ends up in a shelter and is PTS a few years later because
the family you sold it to decide they don't really want a dog anymore, or it

[StarFox]

[quote name='Malamum']
What about the pup that ends up with severe hip displaysia two years down the track because you thought the two dogs you bred were healthy enough and didn't require testing for HD? (this can apply to any genetic condition I just used HD as an example)
[/quote]


You didn't write anything in response to this statment that Malamum wrote. I'm wondering what value do you place on health checks?

[Guest Anonymous]

<<You didn't write anything in response to this statment that Malamum
wrote. I'm wondering what value do you place on health checks?>>

I think genetic checks are invaluable.

[DogPaddle]

[quote][color=red]People out there call themselves "breeders" when they really aren't. They think that because they have a litter every now and then it means they are a breeder.[/color] They have a litter with the intent of keeping one or two for there showing career. The rest of the pups go to other homes. Well, the dictionary says,"breeder: one that breeds : an animal or plant kept for [color=#444444]propagation[/color]". [color=red]Sounds to me like these folks are not keeping these animals for propagation. So lets have these people stop calling themselves breeders because they are NOT. They make people believe that if they do not do it how they do (when they aren't even true breeders by definition), they are PM's and BYB's![/color] [/quote]

This is some of the reason why people think your posts are hostile. The people you are talking about are very responsible and are not PMs or BYBs. I have had quite a few dogs from rescue and fostered one - he was intentionally bred and the guy liked his dogs etc but didn't do the checks - Tyr ended up with 4rth grade Hip Displaysia (sp?) and this resulted in moderate Oesteo Arthritis by the age of 8 months! Many owners and vets put these dogs down, others ignore their pain and the dog suffers. Fortunately Tyr is now in a permanent home where they ensure he has something soft to sleep on and gets his Glucosamine and Chondroitine and occaisional aspirin. People are wound up about this so much because they care so much.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='"newfiemom"']I'm a little confused. Here you are stating that health checks are invaluable but in the For Dark Mystery thread, you state that you don't do it. If they are so invaluable, then why don't you do it?[/quote]

In an earlier post I said I have wanted to do such testing, but didn't
know where to go. Someone kindly told me.

[KathyM]

The vet would be able to advise you what testing was required :-?

[LisaLQ]

I know I prattle on about greyhounds (and lurchers) but they are churned out of what I would class as puppy farms (although only the one breed if you get me), sold at auctions, are classed as livestock in Ireland, and recently there was a case where a man (a supposed greyhound trainer) was caught transporting 102 pups in a trailer...here's the story....

----------------------------

STEPHEN HAMILTON ARRESTED WITH 102 PUPPIES

It is with mixed emotions to WAG that it has now been revealed that the man arrested by police at Stranraer is Stephen Hamilton. This man has been convicted of operating without a licence and selling sick or dying dogs, strangely enough he too was fined