Proud "Backyard breeder"

[Guest Anonymous]

I've read through many of these discussions and just wanted to post that I am what you so widely call a "back yard breeder" ...in such that I breed Healthy PURE Breed dogs with all proper papers, and legal chanels...all my pets are healthy, vet checked etc....but are not "show quality" not to say that some of them aren't...show quality just not a requirement.....I breed PETS for people who want AKC healthy full breed PETS, but aren't interested in show quality animals...which the price for a PET & a show dog differes greatly......I feel there isn't anything wrong with people breeding dogs that are perfectly healthy and meet the AKC standards to continue to breed pets for people who want them.....

All of my new parents must consent to a background check....(for various reasons.)I call the county animal control in the area in which they live to see if they currently have pets licensced or have every had a pet picked up!....If they currently have a pet, I ask for permission to contact their vet to get the shot information...or allow them to provide that for me.....I go to their home (if at all possible) to see the conditions my dog will be going to.....they fill out a detailed application/questionare...and I choose at my discretion whether or not I have accepted them as suitable parents for my dogs!! I also send home a care package with my Pup...that includes everything they will need for him/her for 30 days....and strongly incourage by education that the pup stay on the food I have given them, or one that meets thesame standards.(innova).
Care packages include: Blanket pup has had since whelping (with birth name on it)..Collar, leash, shampoo(from groomer), toys, album of pup with pics, and funny stories since whelping, 1 bag of food & detailed information about the breed, as well as specific care instructions that a new pet owner might not know, training tips/outlines, etc.
My contracts are very clear and I have never had any problems with pets being brought back for health problems or any other reason, other than a death in the family 2 wks later and I ofcourse took the pup back and refunded them the $$ (which I wasn't obligated to do per my contract)....I hope you can see that I love my dogs as much as the next person, and I feel I do a damn good job at my "backyard breeding"

Sorry for the long post, but I felt I had to defend myself and others that I know who breed qualtity pets!

[ellieangel]

I don't think anyone would really class you as a byb !!

BYB is not to say that youbreed from home, lots of perfectly goodbreeders do that it's more a term used to describe the irresponsible ones who know nothing about their breed and are only in it for a profit.

To me you sound responsible and caring and I wish there were more like you !

I notice you say that your dogs are pets not show dogs,in what way though ?

I don't think many on here would class you as a BYB to be honest :wink:

[DogPaddle]

Ok I'm going to get flamed from two different camps here but:

It sounds like you act responsibly while engaged in the business venture you're engaged in and that's great. It also sounds like you care about the pups you produce and that is also great. You also follow up and ensure good homes and that is even better but . . .

I think the attitude you are defending yourself against here is this:
1. There are already something like 6 or 7 pups born for every person in North America so making more is troublesome.
2. The steady supply of relatively inexpensive pure breds (ie pet quality) [color=indigo][i]encourages[/i][/color] people to buy pure breds [color=darkblue][i]rather[/i][/color] than adopting from shelters.
3. This in turn causes the death and/or misery of dogs needing homes.
4. There are so many breeds that have been over or poorly bred that if you are going to breed a paticular breed it should be for the [color=indigo]betterment of that breed ie the resolution of health and behaviour problems linked to genetics or preservation of a rare breed[/color]. I don't think (and I could be wrong) anyone here insists that all breeders aspire to create "show dogs" [color=darkblue]just that they are breeding with a plan to improve the breed.[/color]

While I don't think you are a bad person and in fact believe you have good intentions I do agree with the 4 points above. Not bashing or anything, just something to consider or at least giving some perspective on why people here are leary of any breeding till the KNOW otherwise.

[courtnek]

Proud,

If you are doing all of that, if you are verifying that the breed line is pure, that there are no medical issues (like hip displacia, ear and growth problems) if you are breeding pet standard only and not selling them as Show Quality....then you are NOT a BYB.

BYB's are people who throw two dogs together, regardless of lines, medical history or temperament, adn produce "purebred puppies"
which the ignorant will buy because they are cheaper than well-bred puppies.

I think you misunderstand what we mean by BYB...If you are following all of the above guidelines, then you are not one.

Many breeders end up with pet quality only pups. Providing they are bred with health issues in mind, so as not to propagate those health issues,
they are not BYB dogs...

[ellieangel]

I wouldn't flame you dogpaddle you made excellent points :wink:
The answers will be interesting too no doubt :wink:

[DogPaddle]

Thanks Ellie - I hate p***ing people off but I find it hard to keep my mouth shut when I have an opinion . . . what a dilemma - usually my opinionated side wins. :lol:

[Aroura]

You don't sound like a BYB to me, you actually sound like you have a passion for what you are doing and that is fine. What I have a problem is is when people go to the local pet shop or buy a pure bred pup on a whim and then decide "Oh, I have a pure breed! Better breed it then!" and produce a litter of unhealthy pups that more likely than not will end up at the pound or have unhealthy litters of their own, which then in turn have unhealthy litters etc all due to irresponsible breeders who don't care for the betterment of the breed and sell their pups to others with the same attitude. Like I said, the number of dogs put to sleep each year is NOT getting smaller and people with attitudes like these don't help one bit.
I suggest in addition to all the good work you are doing that you sell each of your pups being sold as "pets" on a desexing contract, this will prevent people with the attitudes I just mentioned from breeding generations of unhealthy dogs which will more than likely result in many more dogs which are pts or mistreated each year.
Out of curiosity, which breed do you own?

[Aonir]

Yah, your not a backyard breeder.

Backyard breeders don't CARE what happens to the dogs, nor the puppies. But on the other hand, a true breeder would breed to improve the dogs breed. Like, cancel out its bad habbits(like excessive barking). Breeding 'pets' means you should have a desexing contract, that I agree with. Other than that, you seem like a good breeder.

I could go on about the bads and goods, but that would lead into a whole different discussion as others back-fire at what I say, and add onto it!

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

Proud,

You are the opposite of a BYB! A BYB doesn't neseccarly mean a "back yard breeder". Loads of breeders breed at home and there is [color=Red]nothing[/color] at all wrong with it! The term BYB means a person who just puts two dogs together to produce some puppies to get the fast buck. Horrible isn't it? You seem like a great breeder! What breed do you own/breed?

[quote]Care packages include: Blanket pup has had since whelping (with birth name on it)..Collar, leash, shampoo(from groomer), toys, album of pup with pics, and funny stories since whelping, 1 bag of food & detailed information about the breed, as well as specific care instructions that a new pet owner might not know, training tips/outlines, etc. [/quote]

I think that is a wonderful idea! Especially the blanket thing, it's like taking a peice of home with him/her! And the pics and funny stories are a wonderful addition! I think your a wonderful breeder! :wink: Way to go!


Just a tip, do not go around saying you are a BYB or people will most likely aviod you! Because you are NOT a BYB and they might think you are. It would all be a huge misunderstanding... :wink:

Please join us! We would love to have you! :)

[ellieangel]

Good post Kiwi :wink:

[Sanvean]

I agree with the others. It sounds like you care a great deal about your babies.

But I will add that, like the others, my concern is the pet overpopulation in this country and the number of dogs already in shelters. Is it possible that people are buying puppies from you instead of adopting babies from shelters? I guess this depends on what kind of dog you're breeding. If it's labs, then the answer is yes. If it's a small breed, then the answer is probably no.

My only other concern would be the breed standard -- are you in any way making sure the pups you breed conform to it? I am a firm believer that a dog should look like its breed was meant to, not like something else. But that's just a personal opinion :)

[Malamum]

Dito to all of the above.. although I am going to add something to which I am probably going to get flamed for....

I understand that there are lots of dogs in shelters that need homes but in my opinion that doesn't mean that that responsible breeders shouldn't continue breeding.

I purchased my dog from a responsible breeder and yes paid a fortune for a show quality dog - however I'm not interested in showing I just wanted a healthy baby who because of their parents OFA rating has a significantly reduced change of getting hip displasia etc.... Quite a few people I know of who have rescued Malamutes are now dealing with HD (ranging from mild to severe cases). I may be selfish for not wanting to go through that I but I personally want the odds in my favour in regards to medical issues and if that means buying from a breeder then so be it.

[Carolk9s]

Malamum,
I totally understand your position. When Jesse passes on, I want another male Belgian, either a Sheepdog or a Tervuren. I may look into getting a puppy from a responsible breeder or I may look to rescue. But I do want another purebred Belgian in my life. This will not stop me from adopting another dog from the pound, if am looking for another girl down the road and I come across one in the shelter, I'll look into adopting her.

[Carolk9s]

OK proud backyard breeder,
You do sound good and responsible and caring and meticulous. I would like more info. In addition to the concerns already mentioned about taking away potential homes from shelter dogs:
What breed or breeds of dog do you have?
What are the specific health issues associated with your breed(s)?
What specifically are YOU doing to prevent occurrence of such health issues?
If HD is present in your breed, do you xray breeding stock AFTER their 2nd birthday and get either OFA or PennHip (sp?) certification?
At what age do you first breed your bitches and dogs?
How often will you breed a specific bitch?
These are just some questions I personally have before I would decide you are truly responsible or have been getting by on luck.
Truly don't mean to offend, tho if these questions offend you, I'd wonder why.
A FORMER friend of mine had two labs, I begged him not to breed, his partner was adamant that there WOULD breed. I asked him to have both his dogs OFA'd first, oh no that is not necessary, they are healthy and their parents are healthy. Sure enough, they bred the dogs. Pet quality labs. Lovely dogs but too damn many get put down every day as it is.
Disgustingly, after weaning the litter, the very next time she came in heat, oops she was bred again. Poor girl ended up with mastitis to boot.
As I said, FORMER friend.

[Guest Anonymous]

Thank you to all who feel I don't fit that horrid description. I never thought I did myself, but you run into a lot of people out there that feel very strongly about breeding (as I do), and feel that if your dogs can't make conformation then they shouldn't breed. Thats not saying my dogs dog meet standards or have two tails or something, just maybe that they maybe don't have enough of a color in their coat, or that their head is 1/8 inch to small, etc. very small details that only a judge would notice. That doesn't mean I don't have any that have shown, just that I don't require it to be the reason to breed

I currently have Cairn Terriers & West Highland Terriers, and a Scottish Terrier on the way I'm retiring my Westies and going to Breed Scotties in it's place. Like someone with Scotties said about health & skin issues, that is how I breed my babies. All of my dogs breeds have a huge tendancy for skin ailments, I have a few of my own that do have this problem, (that I don't breed) this is why I breed my Healthy pups, to try to generate a healthier breed for people, because they want these dogs anyway, and will buy them from people as you say don't care about what they are producing, and if you have ever owned a pup with skin problems you know how sad it is for that little dog! and if people don't take the time to try to help find out what is affecting the dog, then it just means a lifetime of misery for him. And the owners who do try and try to help their dog, its very draining emotionally as well as financially.

As for the pound issue, these dogs aren't generally found in the pound and thouse who are generally have the above mentioned skin problems as well as a number of other potential problems, and most people want a puppy from birth, that they know the history and have a person(breeder) that they can go back to if they are having problems or with questions etc. I wouldn't recomend a first time puppy owner to go rescue one from a shelter, I think they need to be an experience dog person before they take on that task! (In many cases)

[Sanvean]

I agree that many rescue dogs can have special needs...that was part of the reason that we got Macy from a breeder. (She was an adult who had been retired, though, not a pup.) I looked for a rescue Maltese, but most of the ones I found were either very elderly, bad with kids or bad with cats.

However, I would not say that it is universally true that rescue dogs are more work, either. In some cases, they are LESS because of prior training and for the simple fact that they are adults. For example, we just got a gorgeous GSD whose obedience is flawless. He was actually trained to be a police dog but was rejected because of hip issues (his were only rated good, not excellent). He's being given up because his owner's new boyfriend "doesn't like dogs." This is his photo -- isn't he handsome?

[img]http://www.petfinder.com/fotos/MI132.2006310.jpg[/img]

As for your terriers, I don't see too many of them languishing in shelters! I don't think my group has ever had a Westie, a Cairn OR a Scottie. However, I do still feel that dogs should conform to the standard, so that a breeder should at least be familiar with it, even if he/she doesn't choose to show dogs.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote]4. There are so many breeds that have been over or poorly bred that if you are going to breed a paticular breed it should be for the betterment of that breed ie the resolution of health and behaviour problems linked to genetics or preservation of a rare breed. I don't think (and I could be wrong) anyone here insists that all breeders aspire to create "show dogs" just that they are breeding with a plan to improve the breed.
[/quote]
One of the best posts about breeding I have seen on here. I agree 100% with this one. If the betterment of the breed isnt considered by the breeder, you have a BYB.

[Aroura]

I agree with Malamum that there do need to be good breeders out there breeding for "pet quality" dogs. A lot of people will sooner buy from a puppy mill then a shelter, isn't it better that they have the option of pet quality pups from a good breeder that values health? A lot of breeders strive so hard for the breed standard they forget about the breeds health. Although I do believe that "pet quality" breeders that strive for health and well being have their place, I also believe that they should breed pups to resemble the breed standard as closely as possible (this isn't directed at you Proud - it sounds like your dogs are good, but just not champion standard)... I see ALOT of dogs every day that are obviously pure bred but they don't look any thing like they are supposed to!!! Do you have any idea how many people tell me that Lily is small for a boxer? "She's NOT small" I tell them "She matches the standard, its just that OTHER PEOPLE don't breed their dogs well and every other boxer around this town is too BIG!!!"... Well, nearly every one, there are one or two outstanding boxers around here that are actually quite similar in size to Lily (keeping in mind Lily is a bitch). about 9 out of 10 boxers I see from day to day are tall, skinny and have tiny little heads - they could NEVER make it in the ring. I don't know where these dogs are coming from, but I'd presume they are from these numberous unregistered boxer ads that keep popping up in the paper! I doubt they have any any form of health check or that any of their ancesters have faced the ring for generations.
So I guess what I am saying is, there is a place for breeding "pet quality" dogs, but the breed standard must always be a guide to what you are breeding, otherwise you end up with a whole heap of mongrel looking dogs which make the true pedigrees keep people guessing as to "what esle" they've got in them!!! :o
Its sounds like you are doing a good job though Proud, I must say I was releived when I heard you're not breeding labs of German Shepards etc, keep up the good work. :D
By the way - Sanvean, what type of person could give up a life time companion for a boyfriend who just as likely as not wont even be around in a few months? I remember when I was going to get Lily, I went out to see her at the breeders and went home as I wasn't going to get her till the next week. I told my boyfriend at the time about this pup that had stolen my heart and he more or less threatend to beat me if I got her, it was either him or the dog. Well you all know which one I chose! :P

[DogPaddle]

See PBYB we aren't so bad, just concerned so . . . are you gonna join Dogo? :D

[courtnek]

YEAH!! I AGREE!! JOIN DOGO!!

Let me explain - you have obviously been a LOT of places where you have been put down, belittled, and not welcomed.

WE ARE NOT LIKE THAT!!

Our charter, as long as I have been here, has been to help people with
doggie issues, encourage people with their issues, teach people how to handle their dogs and make life easier for everyone...

We have our opinions...we DONT always agree...but that is allowed.
We TRULY do try to help each other, even when we dont agree.

Joinus, and be a part of a group ofpeople with various different opinions on EVERYTHING, and yet we still manage to get along....

WELCOME TO DOGO!!!

:) :) :)

[iceyshiver21]

I like my rescues and will always have them...I have 6 now. Two of which are getting older in age. After Buck and Dutchess have happily passed on I am going to consider getting a purebred Border collie, Aussie, or rotty to go to college with and live up to pace with my fast life style. I work for an Aussie Breeder. I

[courtnek]

I believe in both sides of the story!! Ambivalent? well, yes and no... :lol:

I personally am a shelter/rescue person. That's what my heart tells me to
do, so I do it. However, some people prefer purebred dogs, for various reasons, one of which is that their traits are USUALLY easier to
predict ahead of time. As you all know, that's not always true, but in general, you know what you're getting ahead of time. If you put the correct training and socialization time in, you usually get what you expected.

this I have to comment on:

[quote]soo many Scotty's have skin issues that I think breeding those who don't would be a benefit to the breed even though they wouldn't pass a conformation!! [/quote]

I agree 150% with this. If by getting a pup with a snout 1/8 inch too short,
you end up with a dog that is signifigantly healthier, than I would do it.
In future litters you could try to reconform to standard Show Quality,
while still keeping the healthy traits there. In my opinion, what's more
important? A dog that will win BEST IN SHOW and be miserable because
he's itching all the time? Or a dog with a snout an 1/8 inch too short
who wont win best in show, but is happy, healthy and has the capabilities
to produce more puppies with less problems? I have never shown a dog,
so to me, what is best for the dog is best. period.

:)

[ellieangel]

I agree with the others.......come and join us !!

But perhaps a change of name :wink:

[GoldenLuv]

I think joining would be great...!

Though I think that changing your name would be wise since you now know what dogo members consider a BYB :wink:


As for what I have to say on this matter...we have a golden that everyone says is really pretty. She has a great personality (it is the perfect personality of a Golden), temperment, and is in good health. We are thinking about having 1 litter and keeping one pup ourselfs. We are going to have spay/neuter contracts (even if the pups will have to sell for less) We are going to have the mom certified on ALL health checks and the stud dog to. The puppies will come back to us NO MATTER WHAT. We are going to check and make sure the family will provide a good home for the pup and If we end up having to keep more than 1 that is the responsibility of my family as the breeder.

At first I did not want to breed her and take away a chance for a shelter dog to die. But I relize people do want purebred dogs. I want to adopt a dog still but my mother said that she wanted to breed our golden and I agreed as long as we do the above ( and absoulutley no CHRISTMAS PUPS!!) This is still up in the air but if we do breed I am suggesting that we go to the rescue and adopt a dog also. My mother has agreed that we will only breed once no matter how fast the pups sell and no matter how many people want another one.

So I am not for just breeding two dogs that have never had any tests and are not going to better the breed. If you are in it for the money then you do not deserve to own dogs at all.

I also belive that the breed you choose to breed,you should know everything you possibly can about it. You have to be willing to spend money and do the surgery if a pup will not survive without it.

I am for the mutts to! To many die each year and we do not need BYB selling bad dogs who to will end up there.

I do not think that I ever will be able to make points like some of you....someday maybe!!

[Rosebud]

:D


Good for you Proud.

You are not a BYB and you are not a SHOW breeder, you are a [b]REAL, HONEST TO DOG CONCERNED BREEDER[/b]. You are what the the show people [b]NEED[/b] to get back to and what the BYB people [b]SHOULD[/b] be.

Show breeders get so wrapped up in what is the winning fancy is that they will deviate from the actual breed standards to the point their dogs don't actually conform anymore but to them that doesn't matter because it's what the JUDGE is putting up to win.
[size=2]ex.
Excessive slant on the topline to a GSD is not correct no matter how many judges will say it is.[/size]

Keep in mind that your breeding program is essential to the betterment of the breed and one day show breeders may be coming to you to FIX their problems, with this in mind stay true to the breed's standard and limit the registration on pups YOU feel won't contribute to the breed. Also keep in mind a fault with a dogs head can be fixed in one generation, but bone/substance ie. movement issues can be lost forever.

:angel: