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APBT...absolute empirical evidence that genetics don't ...


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[b]Supreme Court in Alabama ruled that there was no genetic evidence that one breed of dog was more dangerous than another, simply because of its breed.

(So there is absolute empirical evidence that genetics don't make a Pitbull dog aggressive)

The women, who did not have a lawyer, argued the animals were never trained to fight and conditioning can suppress any vicious tendencies the dogs might have.

(So these women said APBTs are not Dog aggressive because they have not been trained to fight AND that CONDITIONING SUPPRESSES vicious tendencies, interesting)

Judge Battle agreed and on Nov 13 2001, declared the four young pit bulls were not dangerous because they were never trained to fight.

(Look what the Judge decided based on genetic evidence- Pits are not genetically dog aggressive, they have to be trained to be dog aggressive, interesting)

WAF submitted evidence to the Supreme Court that they were able to provide:

1. Identification of expert treatises regarding the genetics of the breed in question

(Look at that REAL GENETIC EXPERTS were used instead of a breeders' experiences, interesting)

2. Testing and studies regarding genetics verses environment as the catalyst for a specific dog breed's aggression

(Well would you look at that. It isn't genetics that make a American Pitbull dog aggressive, it is the environment that shapes the dogs aggression towards other dogs. I guess you have to be vigilant with a Pit and correct him/her when ever they become aggressive towards other animals from the time they are wee little pups. That way they won't act like that when they grow up. After all they are a dog that likes to please their master and these dogs like being corrected with love from thier master)

3. Social contributions made by the American Pit Bull Terrier (i.e. as Assistance Dogs, Search and Rescue Dogs etc.)

(Aren't these dogs amazing. Look what they can do)

5.The briefs filed by the City were insufficient to adequately address the far reaching issues involving genetic breed bias

(See that most people have a bias when it comes to Pits and some who own these dogs have been brainwashed to think the very same thing. That Pits are natural dog aggressors)

Bui also told OUR DOGS this week: "For years the American Pit Bull Terrier has been alleged to be dangerous because of its genetics. Never has WAF found any genetic research proving that.

(Again there is no evidence to support anyone that the American Pitbull Terrier is genetically born with the potential to be dog aggressive, it's all environmental)

"It was a long battle and now we have proved the American Pit Bull terrier is not genetically dangerous." [/b]

No one could have said it better!!! Long live the APBT/AMSTAFF. I guess your Big Guest provided the ultimate evidence that Pits are not gentically dog aggressive, but are trained to be that way. I guess those that have dogs that are dog aggressive must have allowed or subtly taught the dog unknowingly to be animal aggressive.

Look on the brightside. It's not genetic, so you can still train a Pit to not be dog aggressive!

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Guest Anonymous

OKay explain this then:
take Drey raised in the exact manner as all my dogs, not the least bit dog or human aggressive he is currently 10 months old. he gets a long great with other dogs, he plays a little rough but that is neither here nor there.

Snow White is a puppy at only 4 months old, raised in good environment with other dogs and well socialized, is dog aggressive. She turned on at an early age, she will bark and growl and even pull to get to other dogs when we are out, its a work in progress to get her to control her urges.

two dogs of the same breed neither trained to fight, neither displays aggression amongst themselves yet strange dogs are met with aggression(interesting) Are you to imply that i taught my dog to be aggressive? No i thought not. Its an inherant trait in the breed. I dont understand how the common sense of this is escaping you. If you have a dog breed for hundreds of years to fight other dogs that aggression becomes instinct. It doesnt need to be taught, it doesnt need to be molded, it doesnt need to be praised.

The act of fighting is in itself all the dog needs to want to do it again.

You are spending untold time looking up articles that dont apply. okay the judge decided that a few puppies were not aggressive and that is not uncommon, known fighters are routinly PTS because of the danger of placing them into a family. where puppies that have no fight history are given a second chance. as for your "genetic experts" what do they know of these dogs? do they own one? have they raised and trained one before? odds are pretty high that they havent. Its is weird that you would take the word of someone who knows nothing about these dogs over the word of people who have bred, raised, and trained these dogs thier entire lives.

now THAT is intersting.
:black:

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Guest Anonymous

I have been a fan of pits for years. I have never met a dog aggressive one except for those who were trained to be that way. All it takes is subtle training on your part to make a monster. I have friends with great Pits. They are friendly to all the dogs I have seen them with. Your remarks are just as bad as the media as far as I am concerned. All you do is put down the breed even though you may or may not have one. Your just pouring more gasoline on the fire that the media is already burning.

As far as you having trained your dog to be dog aggressive, the answer is yes. You just don't know when and how you did it. How sad for your dogs. You may whined up in the newspaper or on TV when your dog attacks another pet someday. Good luck with your training because it is an ongoing thing with these type of dogs.

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Guest Anonymous

[b]Supreme Court in Alabama ruled that there was no genetic evidence that one breed of dog was more dangerous than another, simply because of its breed.


Your remark about no evidence is upsurd. Do you really think a judge would decide that Pits have no dog aggressive gene without actual empiracal eveidence. Don't be so silly. That's immature talk, like when a kid cannot get his/her own way. Just because the article did not state the evidence doesn't discount it. Certainly the judge considers evidence before he makes a decision. Please stop bad mouthing Pitbulls. [/b]

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Guest Anonymous

Pit bull Fan, the big guest, hollywod whoever you are or whatever name you choose to adopt, this article does not change the reality of the breed. people try to pass these dogs off as perfect angels.
THEY ARE NOT!!!
By ability they are a very aggressive and dominant dog in the wrong hands they are deadly weapons that are totally untrustworthy around pets. Now in the right hands they are very sweet and even tempered, slobbery wiggle-butts that want nothing more than to lay all over you and beat you to death with a waggin tail.
If you want the last rather than the first you need to wake up to the dogs potential and then train accordingly. by passing off this crap that its "how you raise them" people are not fully prepared for the dogs abilities and that is how you get things printed in the paper. that classic sob story "hes never done anything like that before".

If you realize that these dogs are capable of and proned to aggression with dogs no matter what you do, you will be better prepared to deal with it if it should surface. Its common sense, the reason these dogs fell into the wrong hands was because tjhey are being exploited for what they can do. They are the pinnacle in the dog world of fighters. its thier heritage and legacy. its the job of the responsible owner train and control the dogs instincts.

Its like saying that we teach our dogs to dig up the backyard. at no time have i ever told my dog to dig up my yard and he gets corrected every single time he does it. But he is a terrier and terrriers dig, well actually most dogs dig, but the point is its one of those self-rewarding instincts. they dont need to be told to do it, and once they start they will try every chance they get.

but i guess my dogs just dig because i taught them how to, right?


"Tis better to have the skills and not need them then to need the skills and not have them"

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I have to agree Rott....we took wolves and turned them into dogs. We changed their sizes, their shapes, their temperaments. Their fur.

We bred them to do specific things....dig, retrieve, point, swim, guard, and sadly, fight. Pit's were bred to fight, plain and simple. If you take generation after generation of dog and in every litter keep instilling the
same qualities, that quality then eventually becomes part of the dogs nature itself. What the dog does with that quality can to some extent be
controlled by training, and socialization. However, Pit's were bred to fight
animals (bulls, bears and boars) obviously 3 or more times their size.
They are stronger than your average dog, alarmingly strong if you dont understand that. They have a jaw that can grip and hold on like a bear trap. No, it doesnt lock. They just dont let go.....because this is what we
have bred into them over the years. We as people made the Pit Bull what he is, for a specific purpose. I dont like the purpose, personally, but it's
too late to change it now.

The problem now is that the media has hyped this thing way out of proportion. I am older than most of the people here, and remember
when the German Shepherd was the bad boy (70's) Rottweilers were the bad boys (80's) and Dobies were the bad boys (early 90's) - because
of bad breeding, inbreeding, and owners who didnt understand what their
dogs could do, all of these breeds were slated as "dangerous" and still are.
I find it humorous that of all the dog bites in the world, the MOST are committed by Cocker Spaniels!!

If you need any more proof of this statement (or confirmation of Rott's)
I have a Lab/German Shorthair Pointer mix. She retrieves, without ever having been trained. She points, without training OR encouragement.
I never taught her to do any of these things - she does them because that is what her parents were bred to do.
It's what we bred them to do. Pit's fight. Plain and simple. You could go your whole life without ever having an incident with yours....then again, he could turn on tomorrow. Rott was merely trying to point out that the
potential is there, and it is up to the owner to be aware of it, and take the necessary precautions.

'nuff said.

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I know a way we can breed the dog aggression out of the APBT...leave it to breeders who show for conformation! I see all kinds of Staffordshire Bull Terriers and American Staffordshire Terriers in the show ring...they are not APBT's but they have common back grounds...they are not dog aggressive in the show ring...or even when they are jam packed in front of the ring with their noses in other dogs butts.
I have Newfoundland Dogs which are supposed to be water rescue dogs....and they are supposed to be fantasik swimmers and hard to get out of the water....I have FOUR Newfoundland dogs which I can't even get to wade in the water....instinct...I think not! I also had a Standard Poodle...now Poodle's are supposed to be retriever's of waterfowl...could I get her into the water or even retrieve...no!
I owned a Doberman Pinscher which loved the water, and the same is true for my Rottweiler I own today! she will swim, retrieve and put her head right under the water and go to the bottom to pick up rocks...I have her going for the splash..like my Newf's are supposed to do...my Newf's stand on the shore and watch my Rottie in the water playing and swimming...and its not like they do not have ample opportunity to swim because I have hundreds of lakes in my area and I live on the ocean....and not one of them has had a bad experience....even my freind who has 9 Newfoundlands does not own one that will swim...
So, lets get breeders who show for conformation to fix this problem with our dog aggressive APBT's. :lol:

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[quote]I have never met a dog aggressive one except for those who were trained to be that way.[/quote]
Lucky you..... that doesn't mean they don't exist though, does it?

[quote]I have friends with great Pits.[/quote]
That's just dandy, but are you saying my two dog aggressive APBTs aren't great (the reporter who was tackled and slathered in bully kisses by the youngest one last weekend would probably beg to differ :lol: )?

[quote]All you do is put down the breed even though you may or may not have one.[/quote]
I obviously missed all these "put downs"... care to point them out?

[quote]You may whined up in the newspaper or on TV when your dog attacks another pet someday.[/quote]
Won't happen. That's the difference between a good pit bull owner and a bad one... the good pit bull owner is aware of their dogs' flaws and does whatever it takes to keep them out of trouble, the bad one simply pretends they don't exist.

[quote]Good luck with your training because it is an ongoing thing with these type of dogs.[/quote]
"These type of dogs"? What do you mean by that? Are you implying that "these type of dogs" are somehow different from other types of dogs? That's a bit stereotypical, isn't it?

MackersV20 is also right that the case referred to in the article you posted only deals with whether or not pit bulls are inherently dangerous to humans... not to other dogs. There have been NO studies done on whether or not certain breeds have a higher propensity for dog aggression (which would, from your earlier posts on the matter, qualify them as "dangerous", nor are there any accurate stats on dog on dog attacks.


One more thing I wanted to point out:
[quote]They are friendly to all the dogs I have seen them with.[/quote]
If you happened to see my dog, Goo lounging about the house with our four other dogs, you'd easily be lulled into thinking that she would never fight with another dog. After all, she's been humped, sat on, sniffed, trampled, licked, pushed around, had toys and chewies stolen from her, even been outright attacked by the other dogs, all without so much as a nip at one of them. She's the only one I trust to play on the springpole with our snippy little dachshund, because she's the only one who won't launch into WW3 when the dachsie grabs her nose while trying to get a better grip on the tug or get so frustrated with her that she starts a fight.

Normal scenes from our house...
[img]http://seemesmile.com/photos4/2637142a.jpg[/img]

[img]http://seemesmile.com/photos4/2551229a.jpg[/img]

Yet this same dog will fire up at the sight of another dog,and would fight if she was free and/or they came close enough for her to grab them. She has such a strong dislike for strange dogs that she went through a window after some, and even after that substantial "correction" (smashing her head against a window and cutting her nose) for going after other dogs, STILL has a strong desire to get them. It would be great if dog aggression was something that was "trained in", and could easily be "trained out", but it's not.

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Guest Anonymous

Hey GooeyDog you have a very dangerous Pit there. You very words describe your dog as a danger for other dogs. One day your dog will get away from you and that will be it! You never know. A Pit is a strong dog and you could be distracted ( everyone gets distracted) and bang the damage is done to an innocent dog. Just think what your dog would have done if it got through that window and attcked that poor dog! That dog seems a bit too wild.

If I was walking a dog and your dog made any attempt to attack I would report you. That is a dangerous Pit. You should consider doing something about it because it sounds like you have always let the dog behave that way. Your dog probably scares the crap out of people when thay see your Pit acting dog aggressive. Seriously Bro... that's a powerhouse in your hands...correct it before your in the courts.

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I agree, your pit does sound dangerous. I, myself, have never met an agressive pit in my life. I've seen them around other dogs and they were just fine. You should probably make sure that your Pit has all its shots, Rabies and distemper especially. Also make sure it's spayed/nuetered because that can cause a little agression if it knows another male dogs around with a female dog inheat. Hope these tips help. I also suggest getting a vets recommendation to help it. Take it to dog classes to try and get it socialized well - which you should have done as a puppy.

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Goo, you are being baited (in regard to Guest) by someone who hasn't liked your answers in the past. Don't take the bait. No need to dignify that post with a response. I fully believe all it's intended to do is coax you into an argument and I believe it's *ahem* someone who has really not liked any of the "empirical" (one of their favorite words) evidence you've so articulately put forth in your posts. In other words, don't feed the troll. Save yourself the aggravation.

I'll stick my neck out further to say this... just from seeing the time Gooey has spent researching and making the effort to actually LEARN something and the time taken to try to pass some of that along, I'd trust her(? :oops: ) any time with her dog under her control around any of mine as I fully believe she is just that responsible. Gooey is EXACTLY the kind of owner that a dog like that needs rather than someone who just blindly believes "it's all in how they're raised." Guest is just blowing smoke.

Gooey, I am only assuming you are a she? I honestly don't know. :oops:

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anyone who believes that dog aggression is not a natural trait of pit bulls or that it can be trained out, obviously knows nothing about the breed. it's those people who believe that any pit bull can be trained to get along with other dogs who eventually wind up in sticky situations, not responsible owners.

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Aonir, never apologize for voicing your own opinion. You have a right to speak your opinion just as well as I do, or anyone else here does. We have just been having a problem with a disgruntled poster lately, posting under different (or no) names and basically trying to beat an already dead topic to death. No apologies necessary from you at all. :)

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Aonir, I understand where you're coming from, but in my efforts to make a point, I also left out some key things about my dog (and our friend "guest" has added in some of their own thoughts, all of which are grossly unfounded assumptions). First, those "poor dogs" she bolted through the window after were in our yard (we're also pretty sure that they killed a stray cat we'd been feeding for a few weeks while they were there, as there was blood throughout the yard, no cat, and the neighbor had admitted proudly months before "my dog kills cats") have tried to bite me once (in our yard), have attacked her twice (again, in our yard), and have threatened numerous people and other pets/animals in our area during their roamings.

I also need to make clear what I mean by "firing up", as I'm sure it's easily to imagine how horrible it could be.... when she sees another dog, she dances around on her toes and watches them, nothing more. I can put her in a sit while a dog on-leash (and under control) passes by 10 ft away from her, no outward reaction. She will NOT, however, stand by and ignore a strange dog harassing her, sniffing her, pawing at her, humping her, etc, so I keep her out of situations like that, avoiding strange off-leash dogs completely whenever possible, or if not, either walking quickly away or even picking her up and carrying her out of the situation if need be. I've only recently started walking her out of the yard by myself, and as a precaution, we go after dark (usually after 12:00am, when most of the neighborhood is in bed), and stay on quiet streets or the huge field where I let the other dogs run during the day. Goo doesn't get off-leash, even in fenced areas, because she's a fence jumper as well, and I don't want to risk a stray dog coming up to fence fight and giving her reason to jump out.

Guest would also have you believe that I have done nothing but sit by as my dog blatently tries to attack other dogs... that is far from the truth. I've put [i]thousands[/i] of hours of work into getting her to this point, desensitizing her to other dogs, redirecting her aggression, teaching her to control herself around other dogs, and have used several methods to try to do this, all with different rates of success. Yes, she's a work in progress, but she's gotten (and will continue to get) better and better at handling these types of situations. Also, I DO socialize her, it just so happens that her "socialization" right now is with dogs that are at a distance from us, and I plan for it to stay that way until she's comfortable enough for them to be closer.

Another thing guest fails to mention is that this particular dog is 10 yrs old, and that we've been managing her with these issues for 9 1/2 of those years (she's been spayed for that long, too... bit*hy hormones aren't the cause of her "issues") without a problem. It may not be the choice you would make, but to me, the endless devotion I see in her every day is more than worth the small amount of trouble we go through to keep her (and other peoples' pets) safe.

She's not the only dog aggressive dog we have, there's also a younger pit bull (not as "on/off" as Goo, but also not as predictable as Goo, either), and a mini Dachshund, who is completely predictable... she'll go after ANY dog that happens along her way, unless given a direct command to leave them alone, and even then will sometimes try to sneak. Interestingly enough, all three of these dogs were lounging with me on my bed yesterday while I watched TV.... soooooo out of control they are :wink:

BTW, thanks Michelle and HF for the friendly words, and yes HF, I'm a "she" :lol:

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Aonir, pit bulls generally are extremely friendly towards people, but many (more than not) are aggressive to other dogs... though it varies as to what extent. Here are some links that have good information on the typical pit bull temperament.

Click around on this site, they talk about dog aggression, human aggression (actually, I guess it should be "lack of" human aggression :wink: ), the works, on several different pages: [url]http://www.realpitbull.com/[/url]

Good stuff on this page, other info on APBTs on the other pages if you're interested: [url]http://www.workingpitbull.com/aboutpits.htm[/url]

More: [url]http://www.badrap.org/rescue/owning.cfm[/url]
[url]http://www.badrap.org/rescue/myths.cfm[/url]

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This may be a bit of an aside but:

Speaking as someone who has a nonpitbull that behaves aggressively when encountering strange dogs (BTW this behaviour in my dog may be fear motivated but I'm not sure) while leashed I have to say that any comment that the owner is doing something wrong by taking their unsocialized dog or dog with behaviour issues out in public is really . . . idiotic (sorry I don't usually like to so directly attack peoples opinions but that's how I feel.) How the h*** are you supposed to socialize the dog or help it get over its issues if you never take it out. Socializing the dog prevents bitings. Of course you have to have the dog under control and of course your not going to start by taking the dog for a walk in the playground or busy park but a walk around the block in the evening is a good way to expose the dog to other situations and beings in a controlled way. So what if my dog barks or growls at you a bit - we are working on his issues thanks - not ignoring them.

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Very well said Goo! :D

Gooey, this guest is obviously a troll. Will fight about this topic till the end. Doesn't really care what we say, is too stubborn. Yes, guest, your stubborn and RUDE! And don't think the moderators can't check IP's and see if your the same person or not, because they can!

Gooey, I trust your advice and training and handling of your dogs! I have ALWAYS read your posts with great care, paying attention to details. I have been here for almost a year and I know that you put in ALOT of research into Pit Bulls and Dog Care. You are one of the most knoladgable people on Pit Bulls I have ever met. Your answers always make sence, and I can always see your point of view. You've rescued all your dogs. Your mom is a vet. What else? :lol: Your dogs are in the BEST care and I know it! This guest has just met you and assumes your Pits are "bad". Look who's giving Pits a bad rap now. I do not and will not believe that your dogs are bad or a danger. Just ignore rude guests like these. We all know your pits are wonderful! :wink: You have done so much research, so much time you took to help your dogs and give them the best life possible. Guest doesn't understand that and will not. He/she/IT hasn't spent a year here to understand that. I do. And no matter what I'm on your side! :wink:

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