Sick breeding

[Guest Anonymous]

Warning: this is a long rant that might upset someone. This stuff has been talked about before, I just don’t think it’s been talked about enough. Please don’t start throwing personal threats and flaming me, I’m not trying to point fingers, just want to express an opinion.

Excuse my possible spelling errors, English is not my native language!

Some time ago I saw a picture of a goldfish that had won some amazing title in a fish show (yes, there really are such things in Asia, and they are very popular). It was called the most beautiful goldfish in the world. I looked at the picture and saw a highly deformed animal that was, no doubt in my mind since I know something about fish, so overbred that he must have been suffering. His head was so much covered in deformities that his eyes had completely disappeared under them. His tail was so huge that they hindered his swimming. His backbone was bended and the body was so short that his inner organs must be extremely cramped. The typical goldfish you can see in your local petshop is already so far removed from its original shape that it’s likely to have health problems, and this one was much, much worse. I wondered how the poor thing could even swim or eat. I thought it was completely irresponsible to breed such a fish, yet the breeders of this one had won international awards and recognition. I guess those goldfish hobbyists are so used to seeing more and more elaborate fish each year, until they just couldn’t see the obvious.

I don’t have the picture, but here you can see what a ”normal” goldfish looks like:
[url]http://www.bristol-aquarists.org.uk/goldfish/common/pond.htm[/url]

And here are the ”fancy” goldfish:
[url]http://www.goldfishconnection.com/goldpics.asp[/url]

Look at those pictures and think about these questions.
1. It’s a well-known fact that all of those deformities bring all sorts of problems to the fish: throubles to swim, digestation problems etc. Is it right for those fish breeders to breed this kind of goldfish?
2. It what they are doing much different from what dog breeders are doing?

Of course not all dog breeds suffer from any problems because they are so much different from a wolf, but some are. Let’s take an extreme example: the English Bulldog. Here we have a dog with a flat muzzle, which can cause the dog problems to breathe in hot weather, or when the dog gets excited. The legs are abnormally situated at the sides of the body, which translates into joint problems. Extra drooling combined with the loose skin in the muzzle makes the dog prone to skin infections. The short body means digestion problems, the huge head means that most Bulldogs can’t whelp naturally –heck, many can’t even be bred naturally! Life expectancy is around 8 years, which is way less than what you’d expect from a dog of this size. In short, this is one deformed puppy.

Bulldog has it all, but a great many of breeds today have been bred to have one or some extreme physical features that are bringing health problems to the dogs. A flat muzzle brings breathing problems, a long back with stumpy feet leads to paralyzed dogs, a very small and very big size tends to bring out skeletar deformities, a round skull makes it hard for the brain to fit in well... You name it. Some dogs can’t breed, eat, breathe or move normally because they were bred so. Isn’t this an issue that should be dealt with?

Reputable breeders always point out the importance of breeding only with animals that have been screened against common heritady illnesses. Backyard breeders and puppy millers are basically animal abusers, because they don’t do these tests and might even knowingly breed with a sick animal. Reputable breeders are reputable, because they have ethics. They always think about the wellfare of the dogs first.

This is all well and good, I don’t like the backyard breeders and puppy millers either. But sometimes it seems that all this talk just falls very flat, because the whole dog breeding community seems to turn a blind eye to another problem. Why doesn’t anyone protest when a Bulldog breeder breeds with bitches that have always needed a c-section? Because that’s just perfectly normal for this breed. Anyone who breeds with hip dysplastic German Shepherds is an irresponsible breeder, anyone who breeds with dysplastic Clumber Spaniels is being perfectly normal. Someone who is breeding white Rottweilers is an irresponsibel breeder because she is breeding for ”fads” instead of the breed standard, and the color can lead to health problems.
Someone who breeds Bulldogs with all the necessary health checks is a responsible breeder, even if her dogs have breathing problems and need c-sections. Everyone says there’s no point in breeding white Dobies because they are just not as good as guard dogs as the dark ones, and breeders should always bear in mind the breed’s original purpose. But hey, can the modern Bulldog really fight with bulls anymore? No, it’s just a companion breed nowadays. So why does it have to have that flat muzzle and overbite? Because it makes Bulldogs such great bull fighters. Duh!

Ah, the breed standard. Every reputable breeder should breed according to breed standard. Of course, not many breed standards are very particular in measurements, right? So back when people wrote those standards, they had their own dogs’ measurements in mind. If a hunting dog had to be strong to be a good hunting dog, they wrote ”strong” in the breed standards. They didn’t mean ”as strong as possible”, they meant ”on the stronger side of the dogs we have now”. I bet they didn’t know that breeders would take that to the limit in the future, and breed such massive dogs that they would not be able to be good hunting dogs anymore. What is the purpose of conformation shows these days? originally they were meant to give outsider’s opinion to the breeder and help them to breed dogs that a) looked like a purebred, and b) be physically capable doing the job they were bred to do, with b being a lot more important.

It’s a real farce. Some breeders are backing up by saying that they are breeding for the accepted breed standard, and ”conserving” an old breed. Are they now? Have you seen old pictures of purebred dogs, say, fifty years ago? In some cases there hasn

[Guest Anonymous]

Hi,

I don't mean to imply that all Bulldogs are sick, I'm just saying that they are very prone to have certain problems. Just like a dog with a bad heart is more likely to produce puppies with a bad heart compared to a dog with a healthy one, right? We don't breed with dogs with a bad heart, so why do we breed, say, dogs with a flat muzzle?

[Guest roo]

I do feel the need to ask here :lol:
Just how many bulldogs have you come across in your life?

How many bulldogs have you seen running, with other breeds?

I am politely suggesting you really resaearch the breed to choose to pick on!

Awaiting patiently your response :lol:

[Guest Anonymous]

I don't "research" breeds by observing a few individual dogs. The statistics speak for themselves. These problems *do* exist, no matter how much you'd like to deny.

[Guest Anonymous]

You think statistics are more accurate than research. Oh, dear Lord....

[Rosebud]

:-?

First - Welcome to the Forum.

Second - May I point out that your English grammer/spelling is rather well for someone who does not use it as a first language.

Third - You make some very valid points, although I think the key argument is Responsible breeders.

Unfortunately there are pure-bred show breeders that are in it for the prestige or money. There are Irresposible BYB/millers in it for the money. There are Responsible breeders out there trying to better the breed and get back to the original standards, unfortunately these breeders are rare and usually in the minority. People have their own personal motives for breeding dogs & other animals and unfortunately most of the time it is not the right motive. I believe that the key to preserving any breed is in the education of the general public who is willing to purchase that breed. Proper education can reduce the number of bad/irresponsible breeders but will most likely not eradicate them.

Last - I understand your example of the English Bulldog, although I get the impression that you would not have a problem with seeing this breed extinct. There are responsible/respectable breeders of this breed, again unfortunately they are in the minority. I would suggest you contact these breeders and do an essay on this breed before you start bashing it.

:angel:

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Hmmmm']You think statistics are more accurate than research. Oh, dear Lord....[/quote]

Uh...? I said that making assumptions based on a few individual dogs is not proper research. Statistics are the result of research.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='K']:rofl: Hmmmm I bet they believe "Bite Statistics" are all true as well huh? :roll: :lol:[/quote]

*sarcasm on* Okay, so let's forget all those statistics that prove any kind of health checks on breeding dogs makes any difference.. It's just statistics, right? Let's all just breed with untested dogs because I know three dogs that came from backyard breeders and they are perfectly healthy. *sarcasm off*

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Rosebud']:-?

First - Welcome to the Forum.

Second - May I point out that your English grammer/spelling is rather well for someone who does not use it as a first language.[/quote]

Thank you! :)

But you get me all wrong. I'm not here to bash a breed, I'm giving criticism on breeders of certain breeds.

I don't really know if there are English Bulldog breeders who breed for dogs without a flat muzzle, a large head etc. but have hard time believing it because those dogs would look so completely different from the modern Bulldog. Bulldog breeders would probably just scorn them for breeding dogs that don't look like the standard..

That's my point: a breeder can be considered completely reputable in the dog community, even if she's purposely breeding for physical features that can cause suffering to animals. Nobody's doing anything about it because it's the "norm". A breeder of white Dobermanns gets to be called a backyard breeder. a bulldog breeder gets a pat in the back even if her dogs would be a lot sicker.

[Rosebud]

:-?

[b]Tia wrote:[/b]
[quote]That's my point: a breeder can be considered completely reputable in the dog community, even if she's purposely breeding for physical features that can cause suffering to animals. Nobody's doing anything about it because it's the "norm". A breeder of white Dobermanns gets to be called a backyard breeder. a bulldog breeder gets a pat in the back even if her dogs would be a lot sicker.[/quote]


That's my point, you should actually research a breed, yourself, throughly with respectable breeders before pointing out it's faults. I understand that the English Bulldog has somewhat of a reputation of being a breed stricken with a lot breathing problems, just like the GSD and HD, we could go through the whole list of breeds and point out the health problems each one is plagued with but without hands on research from a reputable breeder breeding for true breed perservation one shouldn't pick on a particular breed. As I pointed out the truly responsibe breeders breeder for preservation are in the minority and without proper public education will probably remain so.

:angel:

[Guest Anonymous]

No intention to bash a breed, just used it as an example. A lot of breeds have problems because they have been bred to extreme.

I think you are being a bit too optimistic about responsible breeders trying to stck with the original breed standards. Even breeds clubs don't usually pay much attention to the matter. Show judges rarely touch the subject. We see again and again how the "extreme" types win at Westminster. If there are dog breeders who breed for the original dogs, they are working at the sidelines of the "elite" dog fancy, not at the top.

[Rosebud]

:-?

[quote name='Tifa']No intention to bash a breed, just used it as an example. A lot of breeds have problems because they have been bred to extreme.
I think you are being a bit too optimistic about responsible breeders trying to stck with the original breed standards. [color=orange][b]Not at all being optimistic, just noting that every breed has their share of problems and that there are good breeders out there that really do strive to maintain true standard, even temperment.[/b][/color]Even breeds clubs don't usually pay much attention to the matter. Show judges rarely touch the subject. [color=orange][b]Are you referring to U.S. breed clubs or the ones in your country?[/b][/color] We see again and again how the "extreme" types win at Westminster. If there are dog breeders who breed for the original dogs, they are working at the sidelines of the "elite" dog fancy, not at the top.[/quote]

Again the whole society of dog breeders has it's problems and I do not disagree with you on the fact that there are alot of irresponsible breeders (whether they are in it for prestige or money) in the show dog world, but your original statements pertained to why were people breeding the English Bulldog with it's stigmatism of having breathing problems and my comment was that you needed to research your observations with the truly reputable breeders that are breeding the correct standard before jumping to conclusions that this breed should not be bred. Your opening post can very well be construed as a disdain for the English Bulldog breed and not as an example of the dog society in general.


[quote]Warning: this is a long rant that might upset someone. This stuff has been talked about before, I just don’t think it’s been talked about enough. Please don’t start throwing personal threats and flaming me, I’m not trying to point fingers, just want to express an opinion. [/quote]
I assume you have been lurking here for quite some time if you feel we have discussed this topic and it is unfinished.

[quote]But you get me all wrong. I'm not here to bash a breed, I'm giving criticism on breeders of certain breeds.[/quote] Then I would like to ask why you picked the English Bulldog and not the GSD, or the BC both of which have a reputation for having just as many problems as the EB. You barely touched on other breeds in your original post.

Tia, If you have a problem with the breeding practices of reputable breeders what would be your solution to fixing these breeds and take them back to their original standards?

:angel:

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Rosebud']:-?

Again the whole society of dog breeders has it's problems and I do not disagree with you on the fact that there are alot of irresponsible breeders (whether they are in it for prestige or money) in the show dog world, but your original statements pertained to why were people breeding the English Bulldog with it's stigmatism of having breathing problems and my comment was that you needed to research your observations with the truly reputable breeders that are breeding the correct standard before jumping to conclusions that this breed should not be bred. Your opening post can very well be construed as a disdain for the English Bulldog breed and not as an example of the dog society in general. [/quote]

I used Bulldog as an example because it's an extreme example, but like I said a great many of breeds have extreme features that bring many of them suffering. Chow Chow, Pug, Dachshund, King Charles Spaniel, Bloodhound, Basset Hound, Chihuahua, Mastiff, French Bulldog, American Cocker Spaniel... Lots and lots of breeds.

I'm not taking German Shepher Dogs as an example because I'm not talking about inherited genetic diseases. That's something the reputable breeders are working to get rid of. But what about the flat muzzle of a French Bulldog? Do we see any breeders who are trying to get rid of the flat muzzle because it's know to cause breathing and other problems to many of the dogs in this breed? Nobody cares, because French Bulldogs are *supposed to* have a flat muzzle. Who cares if they can't whelp their own puppies? Certainly not the breeders I told about in the example. These people were members of the breed club, not just any ignorant backyard breeders. 80% of their puppies are born via c-section and many of the dogs don't breathe all that well, but they don't care because they want the flat muzzles. That's a pretty twisted priority order. Shepherds have tons of problems, but at least the breed clubs recognize them as problems, have studied the problems, and have plans getting rid of the problems.


[quote]
I assume you have been lurking here for quite some time if you feel we have discussed this topic and it is unfinished.[/quote]

I don't mean this forum in particular, I mean the dog fancy in general.

[quote]Tia, If you have a problem with the breeding practices of reputable breeders what would be your solution to fixing these breeds and take them back to their original standards?[/quote]

I don't know the solutions, but it's always possible to reverse things. Breed for smaller heads, longer snouts etc. I guess the result wouldn't look much like a Bulldog, but I reckon that's far less important than the wellfare of the dogs.

[Guest roo]

:o :o :o :o :o

Not all flat faced breeds have breathing problems.

Why? Selective breeding :lol:
You dont need to give the breed a muzzle to make it breath ok
Below is one extremely flat faced french bulldog, who can run with the great danes and has no breathing problems at all :lol:

[img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SADeAsIVVh7ltIlnDZrWIDgIu*2iGQ*NsbeJkBDF7jmAFrAZMDe30KYRsJMCdoCwoWiqeF2KJntOM8BscLIB4!m4PLzaqdBWnrfOvSKZyPFCAAAAcXJbAg/pudding-man.JPG?dc=4675394250192001194[/img]

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='roo']:o :o :o :o :o

Not all flat faced breeds have breathing problems.[/quote]

*sigh* :roll: I knew this was coming. "This problem doesn't exist because MY dog doesn't have it!"

Okay, show me a flat-faced breed that is not known to have breathing problems. French Bulldog is. It doesn't mean that *every* French Bulldog has breathing problems or needs a c-section. I don't really see any French Bulldog clubs trying to eliminate breathing problems or the need for c-sections. OFA and CERF certificates matter, but I don't see breeders questioning wether it's ethical to breed with dogs that constantly need a c-section.

[Guest roo]

I am a french bulldog breeder :lol:

I am selective where i go, i do not breed to create
problems, i breed to the breed standard.
I have no breathing problems in my line.
That is my choice.
Have a nice day :lol:

[Guest Anonymous]

That's interesting. Then you must know the overall sentiments in your breed. Which clubs are you affiliated to? Have they done any studies on these matters? Are reputable breeders concerned about the number of c-sections, for example? Any long-term goals? If you have, I'm impressed. The breed fanciers over here aren't doing a thing.

[ellieangel]

Good for you Roo ! :laola:

[Guest roo]

[quote name='Tifa']That's interesting. Then you must know the overall sentiments in your breed. Which clubs are you affiliated to? Have they done any studies on these matters? Are reputable breeders concerned about the number of c-sections, for example? Any long-term goals? If you have, I'm impressed. The breed fanciers over here aren't doing a thing.[/quote]

The breed fanciers of most breeds are not doing a thing. :lol:

What breed or breeds do you have TIFA?
And what country are you in?

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='roo']What breed or breeds do you have TIFA?
And what country are you in?[/quote]

Eurasier, and Finland.

You still haven't answered to my questions, though.

Why is it that flat-faced dogs tend to have breathing problems?

Why does the French Bulldog have such a high number of c-section, and many can't mate without help?

Why is there such a high puppy mortality rate?

Why do they have a relatively short life span compared to other breeds of that size?

I'm asking because you know more about your breed than I do. How many of those problems are affiliated with the extreme appearance of the breed?

[Guest roo]

[quote name='Tifa'][quote name='roo']What breed or breeds do you have TIFA?
And what country are you in?[/quote]

Eurasier, and Finland.
[color=indigo]Have you any pictures of your dogs there are only a few over here[/color]

You still haven't answered to my questions, though.
[color=red]I am afraid its going to be short and sweet, but i will answer in more depth
later[/color]

Why is it that flat-faced dogs tend to have breathing problems?
[color=indigo]Elongated or soft palate[/color]

Why does the French Bulldog have such a high number of c-section, and many can't mate without help?
[color=red]Haven't come across any that cant mate !
Short coby body, pear shaped, wide front narrow hips [/color]

Why is there such a high puppy mortality rate?
[color=indigo]I wasnt aware there was LOL, what do you mean by this?[/color]

Why do they have a relatively short life span compared to other breeds of that size?
[color=red]What is the average lifespan of them over there?[/color]

I'm asking because you know more about your breed than I do. How many of those problems are affiliated with the extreme appearance of the breed?[/quote]
Many well bred frenchies live to 14 +, Some frenchies self whelp, but many breeders will not let them try to.
But they cant lick their bums due to their short bodies.
I would not call the appearance of the breed extreme.
but i will come back to this later ok?

[Rosebud]

:wink:

[quote]roo wrote:
What breed or breeds do you have TIFA?
And what country are you in?


Eurasier, and Finland. [/quote]


Please educate us on your breed and it's problems, regardless of whether or not there genetic, before you question ours.

Are you a breeder, exhibitor or fancier?

What is the main health problem that you see in your breed?

How is your breed's club/breeders trying to eliminate this problem?

Give us some education background please!

Where do your "statistics" come from, how many sources?

Why have you not researched this topic to develop a basis for your argument? particularly the breeds that you brought into the discussion; ie. English & French Bulldogs.

:angel:

[Malamum]

This is straying from the present discussion but I couldn't see the fish link and all I can now think of is the three eyed fish from the Simpson's. :o

[RR]

[color=blue]Interesting post Tifa. I can understand where your coming from although I'd be interested to know, since you have singled out the bulldog, if you've addressed your questions to bulldog clubs and breeders and what your suggestions were as to how to solve these "problems"? If so what is the feedback you've gotten from breeders? Are you a member of any bulldog club? Obviously you know you can't just suddenly add in a longer snouted dog or a smaller headed dog and walla problem solved --- unfortunately genetics doesn't work this way.

And.... just because some breeders haven't come across these "problems" in their lines don't assume they aren't aware or breeding carefully.[/color]

[Malamum]

Wouldn't they not be having the "problems" because they ARE breeding carefully.