usmcbyrd Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 we got our dog kenzie about one year ago. she is a 2 year old acd. she has been a great dog but unfortunately we dont know her past. about 4 months after we got her we decided to get bruiser. he was an 8 week old puppy when we got him. he has been an awesome dog and great companion. we love both of our dogs like they are our children. thats why this is so hard. since we had kenzie she has increasingly shown agression all the way around. she has twice now put bruiser in the vets office. once she gave him 22 staples she kicked his butt so bad. bruiser is 60 lbs now and we fear that he will take after this behaviour and either take it out on her or worse yet on one of us. today she bit me twice on the hand hard enough to make me bleed a little. it wasnt a normal bite, she looked me in the eye and shook her head aggressively when she bit me. i was very angry as you can imagine. we are now considering getting rid of her. we are going to start trying to have ourselves a little one, a human one, and we dont want to take a chance on her getting aggressive with our child. if she did i would be afraid i wouldnt be able to control myself and would kill her. this is a very hard decision so if anyone could help i would appreciate it. thank you all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefeathers! Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Wow, Byrd, that sucks. I know you are obviously (and understandably) distressed right now, but take a minute to calm down a little and then think about it. Don't even consider options right this minute. What was going on when Kenzie bit your hand? Had you been playing prior? Feeding? Some things to consider. Sometimes physical problems can manifest themselves in the form of aggression. I have a seriously dog aggressive dog who was also becoming somewhat people "unfriendly" (not quite blatantly aggressive, but wouldn't trust her), but we found some physical problems that seemed to at least make her aggression worse, poor eyesight being one of them. She is on medication to chill her out and there is the constant monitoring around our other dogs. She could easily kill one if she took the notion. At this point, I would never ever leave Kenzie alone with the other dog, even outside to play, unless one of you are present. We have to monitor our dog that closely with the others, but it becomes second nature. Anyway, I agree with Mei Mei. Time to talk to a vet and rule out any physical problems and on to a behaviorist. Since you don't have a child yet, don't give up on her just yet unless you do feel truly threatened by her. This is just such a difficult thing to have to go through. Just food for thought. I hate this for you. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmcbyrd Posted January 13, 2003 Author Share Posted January 13, 2003 thank you guys very much, my wife and i appreciate it. she is having a very hard time. the problem is we dont have ANY extra money to spend on a behaviourist or anything like that. we want to keep her very bad. she has been a very awesome dog. she listens like she is human and responds to every command. she is a one of a kind dog. im just so confused about what to do. something that might be helpful to all you experts is even though they have been together so long it seems they still havent figured out who is dominant. they still fight sometimes. she is fixed and he isnt so i wonder if that doesnt cause some of the fights. im not sure whats going on or what to do quite yet. i will figure it out but i hope you guys will help with advice or experiences. you are very appreciated. thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poofy Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 There have been studies conducted in examining a possible link between thyroid disease and aggression. I would have a full scale thyroid panel done, then contact a behavorist through a veterinary university. You have to understand, that you just can't "get rid" of her. There is no where she could go and not be a danger to some one and a financial and legal risk to you. You will have to undertake the responsibility of euthinizing her. I hope tho, in all my heart it does not come to that...and that you will be able to find help from some one specializing in canine behavior. Good luck...and i will send positive thoughts your way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 USMC --- please check your private message; I will pm you and we can talk about some scenario's and things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildbunch Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 What a tough thing to go through I'm sorry Byrd. Have you looked around to see if a breed specific rescue would take her. My prayers are with you both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 awe, Byrd, that so sux. I do know how you feel a lot, going through the same situation not too long ago, and well, sorta still going through it. I know how hard it can be. I agree with everyone else, and since I have "experiance" but unfortanatly not the kind to really help in this situation, all I can do is send my prayers and tell you that I hope everything turns out okay, and that I know how you feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Since I have only posted here a few times I want to let you all know that I am Byrd's wife. I want to thank all of you for your advice and warm wishes. It really means a lot to us. :D We checked out that article on the thyroid and aggression. It does not seem to be the case. Thank you for directing us to the article. Kenzie appears to have no medical problem. Of course there could be an underlying one that is not visible. But it does not seem likely. Keeping a closer eye though. Thought I'd give a little more information here. We got Kenzie from the pound about a year ago. The only info we got from them was that she was 1 to 1 1/2 years old. She seemed nice and calm. A few days after we got her she started biting hands and faces really hard. Luckily we broke her of that fairly quickly. And all was well. Until she attacked Bruiser the first time. He was 3 months old at the time. So I would not think that it was a dominance issue. Thank goodness she didn't want to hurt him too much cuz she could have done a lot worse. She was cleaning him when we found them. We chalked it up to him antagonizing her cuz anytime they would play he would bite her face and pull on it and all that puppy stuff. Again all seemed well until about 3 months later. They got into it again and she bit him on an artery. They have never been left alone together since. After talking to some of you wise dog people we figured they were doing their dominance dance. They are still doing that dance. Bruiser is 10 months old now. For a few months now they will be playing and then all of a sudden start fighting. The last two weeks they have been doing that at least once a day sometimes more. Ever since we got Bruiser the two of them have eaten out of the same bowl. They wouldn't have it any other way. Saturday while Rob was at work I fed them. Bruiser would not let her eat. So I got out another bowl and put food into for her. I stood there and watched them. He walked over to her bowl and wanted to eat from it. She started growling at him so he did a little lunge and snapped at her. So then I tried to separate them with the cage. Bruiser was trying to get Kenzie's food through the cage. Barking, growling, and snapping like crazy. Finally, I put Kenzie in the bedroom just so she could eat. Saturday night's feeding went fine. Sunday they get into it while eating again. They knocked over the filing cabinet and trash in the fiasco. We go to stop it and Kenzie runs into the cage. Bruiser gets into trouble. Kenzie sees it and seems fine. Rob reaches into the cage and that's when she bit him. The rest of Sunday goes fine. She acts normal. No problems at all. Sorry this was so long. I just wanted to let you know some background information to possibly give us more of an idea as to what to do. Perhaps just pleaing for some advice cuz I don't want to lose my baby. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roo Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Well i think the bite may have been a fear issue here, She knew that she had done wrong. Also old memories from past home could have appeared. I would personally feed them in their cages from now on. Jealousy could also be an issue here. It is not the norm for male and female to behave like this, but then again dogs dont read the books :lol: The pups behaviour will obviously begin to change towards aggression, if the older dog is always starting it. Do they argue over toys aswell? I would suggest keeping a diary with things that happen, giving surrounding factors, times, etc. By keeping a diary of events this often helps to track down the reasons. Good luck and keep us informed. Roo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggrolyn1223 Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Please wait before you decide to give kenzie away...you cant take her back once she goes...so please be sure you are making the right decision.Please don't be offended by this, but how are you going to take care of a child if you don't have extra cash?Or are you meaning that you don't want to spend your money on your dog? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggrolyn1223 Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 I wish you good luck with Kenzie.. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 K- I do not think that her behavior has worsened after the travel. We definately will not be feeding them together any longer. egg- :mad: Kind of hard not to take offense to a statement like that. Hopefully my husband won't be offended but he did predict that this could get nasty. Thought it would be a rude guest though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 sorry the above post was from me. i thought i was logged in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmcbyrd Posted January 13, 2003 Author Share Posted January 13, 2003 well as expected since i am keeping such close tabs on this subject i did read eggs post and i am offended. dont worry about how i would manage to pay for a child. noone said i was having one tomorrow. the last thing im sure you meant to do was offend me. but i dont feel like explaining myself or any of my business to someone i dont know a dam@ thing about. for that matter someone that is half my age (i think). my dogs are in extremely good health as far as my vet knows. and as far as my money situation goes, NO i dont have enough money to hire someone to look at my dog for some outrageous sum of money. thats why i come on here, because most of the people on here might as well be behaviourists. hopefully i didnt offend anyone. sorry if i did. i just feel that overstepped my boundries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Byrd, I can understand that this is a tough time for you and sasterb and the dogs. I wish I could help but wouldn't have a clue where to start, I hope you can figure something out before it's too late. Another idea would be to join ACD-L, an email list dedicated to ACDs. Everyone on there is obviously into ACDs big-time and will definitely be able to help with rescue if it comes to that, and if it is a legally available option for Kenzie. It is not for me to comment on your personal situation but I think Egg was just drawing a logical conclusion from what you wrote, or maybe the way you wrote it. To me it is obvious you care about your dogs, but it's also obvious that that type of question would be asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmcbyrd Posted January 14, 2003 Author Share Posted January 14, 2003 i opened up this topic knowing that someone would tick me off, but i figured it would be about my dogs not my personal life. im sure im opening up a can of worms but as im sure you have already figured out, i dont care. to clear things up, that question shouldnt be asked unless it comes from an adult and they pm me about that and ask me in a caring fashion. that seemed more like an insult. im sure in the he!! not going to put my business out in the open for anyone to comment on anymore than i already have. i will say this and i dont give a dam@ if i offend anyone in doing so, i wouldnt spend and large sum of cash on a dog (not saying its just a dog) for someone thats just going to tell me that my dog has personal problems. screw that. thats what i meant when i said we dont have the money to blow on a behaviourist. like i said in my last post, thats why i ask you guys. i dont need a behaviourist when its free on here. i try to save money as much as i can so i will have a little egg for my kid. i dont have a doubt in my head, and again dont care if someone is offended by this because i really believe it, if it comes down to getting rid of my dogs or having a kid, my dogs are gone. no its not just that easy to get rid of my dogs but at the same time i wouldnt even dream of not having a child because someone says i shouldnt get rid of my dog(s). im also quite apphauled that anyone would support her statement in question. im not out to make anyone mad but at the same time please do me the same favor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmcbyrd Posted January 14, 2003 Author Share Posted January 14, 2003 by the way bk, thank you for the idea of the acdl thing. i didnt know about that group. do you know the website for them, or how to join? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Okay, Byrd, I understand where ur comming from, I would probably react the same way... but, (no offence, REALLY!!!) you seem like your almost taking the board for advantage when you say that you min as well come on here and get a behaviorist for free! I do understand though, even though I'm just a "kid" to you. Hazel's aggressive, and my parents don't really have the money to spend on a behaviorist (with three kids, one who's livvin on their own underaged so mom and dad have to pay rent too) needless to say, I SO don't! But I've been trying to find one, and can't... and my parents did say they'd try (even though they don't seem to be) and I do realize that starting a (human) family is a big deal too. But how about instead of everyone arguing... we try to help u keep ur poochy kay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolk9s Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Byrd, I too wish I had some pearls of wisdom to offer, I think Egg is not as aware as some of us how much you do care, you are not a 'fly by night' dog owner. There have been lots of trolls and just plain idiots on the board fairly recently so perhaps some of their posts were fresh in her mind. I hope that is the case. It is tricky not knowing your dogs total past, but even if you did there might not be an easy answer. I would hope that a medical checkup is in the offing for her, there are numerous conditions that can throw a dogs body and mental state out of whack. Just a basic blood panel might reveal some info, she could have a diabetic type condition, thyroid is another possibility, so is the rare but still possible tumor situation. If her body chemistry is out of balance, so will be her mental state. I do hope some solution can be found to enable you to keep her, if not, and the aggression escalates AND cannot be turned around, the ultimate solution may be needed. Hoping not, but the stark truth is that not ALL dogs can be saved, if she is the product of poor breeding, poor temperament, it is sometimes a blessing to the dog to be put out of its torment. I don't wish to offend and I'm certainly not jumping to this or any conclusion. I absolutely agree that a childs safety comes first, of course yours and your wifes does too as well as Bruiser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Foster Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Here are my 2 cents. ACD's are a strong/hard headed breed. They are also very smart and need mental and physical exercise otherwise their behavior could make you scream and question your sanity in getting an acd. Part of Kenzie's problems could be boredem. You could be giving the dog enough physical activity but you need to work the brain. It does seem to be somewhat of a dominance issue. If Bruiser keeps trying to steal Kenzie's food then Bruiser is part of the problem. Kenzie is not to take total blame. Do you play tug with these dogs? Do you allow them to play tug with each other? If you do, STOP now. I have 3 dogs. An acd, a bc/mix and a mini poodle. My acd and bc/mix are both females. My bc/mix is semi dog aggressive-she has been attacked before. When my bc/mix was younger, we allowed the females to play tug because they played so well together. As she got older, my bc/mix wanted to be dominant and she is. And we have to treat her as such. That has helped. We also do not allow them to play tug with each other any longer because it will start a fight. The acd is stronger so the bc/mix gets pissy about it. Kenzie could be biting you out of fear but I have to say that you should not have put your hand in the crate after the dogs were fighting. Her biting was wrong but so were you. If she was cowarding at all, then you should leave her alone. She goes to her crate to get awy from what is happening, let her. Have you taken Kenzie to obedience classes? If so, I would suggest sending her back to class for a refresher. It will help with her socializing and many time instructors that are worth a darn can give you the free advice you want and need. Dealing with her aggression with any type of strong corrections I think will make things worse. I would also suggest working with Bruiser. He seems to be a little confused on what is expected from him. If you can't get him to leave Kenzie's food alone by command, you need to work on his obedience. I agree that you should keep a diary of what starts the fights and the biting. You may find out that something triggers it. If you can figure that out, you are one step closer to figuring out a solution. If you are planning to have kids, I would suggest getting both dogs out and about and around babies/kids. That would be your firt clue to whether or not your dogs are kid friendly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmcbyrd Posted January 14, 2003 Author Share Posted January 14, 2003 thanks a lot foster and carolk9s. i appreciate the help. anything that anyone can give is much appreciated. it seems to me that experience and others experiences are the best teachers, so i guess ill learn. i appreciate the fact that you have an acd so you know how much they can be sneaky and smart. therefore you understand a little more than some. NO OFFENSE MEANT TO ANYONE AT ALL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 oh, I almost forgot... Byrd, there's some behavior links that are quite interesting at my site, I have a whole bunch of links there... not too sure if any of them will help, since all dogs vary, and these links mainly concern Hazel's type of aggression, but it doesn't hurt to take a look... [url]www.geocities.com/fly_n_woof/credits_links.html[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 [quote name='usmcbyrd']by the way bk, thank you for the idea of the acdl thing. i didnt know about that group. do you know the website for them, or how to join?[/quote] Go to [url]www.cattledog.com[/url] and there are instructions somewhere there on how to join the list, I'd tell you how to do it but I can't remember... Many people on the list breed and do rescue so hopefully you will be able to get in contact with someone in your area. Good luck!!! I really hope it doesn't come to getting rid of Kenzie though... :cry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepseasnake Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Damn byrd I think its good I came in a bit late, I got pretty pissed at that little shitty comment myself and was authoring a kick in the teeth for the rest of the thread but it seems dead now so I'll just let it rest. Bro, these guys know best and I've got no idea how to deal with herding dogs, but I totally know what your going through and Im 100% on your side. If your gonna have a kid there aint no Fukking animal thats gonna get in the way, and I dont care what anybody thinks I mean by that because you ask all the moms on this board and its not even a thought as too who comes first. And another thing, never underestimate a mans ability to provide for his family in dire straights. NO man would ever let a thing so trivial as money hurt his wife and kids! And although I dont personaly know the guy, I do know that Byrd is a real man capable of whatever he needs to do, I dont ever worry about guys like Byrd having kids Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Bitch Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 I really don't think Eggro's post was meant to be offensive. It seemed to be an honest question. Yeah she may be a bit younger than the rest of us, and when every single one of us was younger, I'm sure we tended to blurt out things without phrasing them "delicately". Just because she and others her age are interacting in a fairly adult manner doesn't mean they are. Take that into consideration please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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