What is a responsible breeder like?

[Crested]

[color=blue]I've been wondering at this thing with who are responsible breeders and who are not. So now I'm asking you; what do you seek in a breeder? What qualities does he or she have to have? What are the "ingredients" of a RESPONSIBLE breeder?

/Crested[/color]

[Guest roo]

Welcome crested.


I am a breeder only breeding when we want something to show etc
So i will leave the replies to the others to start with
Welcome again, ben looks gorgeous :lol:

[Guest Anonymous]

A responsible breeder is one who breeds for the betterment of the breed; one who titles their dogs be it in conformation or obedience; one who researches the pedigrees of male & female and knows the pedigrees of both; one who tests their dogs for breed specific diseases (cardiomyopathy, thyroid, hip/elbow displasia, etc.) not just a vet check; one who never breeds male or female under the age of 2 yrs; one who never breeds every season; one who breeds no female over the age of 5 yrs.; one who never lets their bitch have more than 3 or 4 litters in its lifetime (preferably 3 max); one who carefully chooses the new owners (best is a home check if possible) requesting references (and checking to make sure the references are reliable); one who only sells their pups on contracts (stating that a pet quality pup must be spayed or neutered and following up on it; and that any pup sold must be returned to the breeder at any time during its entire life should the owner be unable to care for the dog or doesn't want it. IT MAY NOT BE GIVEN AWAY OR SOLD TO ANYONE ELSE.); one who breeds on those dogs which meet the breed standard (breeding a dog w/a fault will come back to haunt them down the road) and one who is always available to new or old owners who have questions/concerns; and one who never breeds for $$$. Reputable breeder are lucky if they ever break even - costs for testing parents, shots for pups, tail docking/dew claw removal, perhaps even special formula should the mother develop mastitis and not be able to nurse, not to mention vet checks for pups and mom after delivery.

[bk_blue]

Well said GP and Newfiemom. I voted "no" because if the people who were behind the dogs who created BK were responsible, they would have had their pets spayed/neutered or not allowed a dog to get near their bitch on heat, or had an unsecured yard where their dog could escape and impregnate another bitch. I am very thankful for him- he is tremendously healthy and has a great temperament- but there are too many like him being destroyed who are the product of not enough dogs being fixed, dogs running away and coming home pregnant, the owners not having thought about the welfare of the pups and where they will go, or genetic testing, or vet checks etc etc etc. :(

[Crested]

Thank you, roo! This seem like a fun place to be and I'm happy to be here! :D
Ok... I want to become a breeder and this is the kind of breeder I want to become... Do you think I just have my head up in the clouds? Do you think I will be a good breeder if I become someone like this? See, I know I'm just 17, but a girl like me has to have dreams... :D
This is just a short list, because the whole story would be too long for anyone to read. ;)

I will:

*Just have max. 2 litters / year (with 2 diffirent bitches)

*check the both dogs that I'm thinking of matching up for all the diseases that the cresteds inherit.. (sorry, my horrible english... You know how it is when you have the Finnish "Mika H

[Guest Anonymous]

No, I don't think you will be a good breeder. You posted all the things people have said to be a good breeder and in you next paragraph say you are getting a girly from Sweden to breed w/your Ben who already has skin allergies and a not so good temperment. So, in other words, you didn't take heed.

You don't mention the background of the girly from Sweden or her breeding. How many champions are in her 4 generation pedigree and how many are in Ben's?

[Guest Anonymous]

Hi,

I have to agree with the last post. You want your breeding stock to be as close to perfect as you can find....I would immediatly eliminate any stud with allergies or temperment issues from a breeding program. Also have you talked to others breeders about which stud would cross the best with the girl you are getting? Research is one the keys to good breeding. You don't mention what your primary objective is in your breeding program....your early vision is very important. Do you want to show in the breed ring? If so, you need to start with the absolute best foundation in your dogs that you can find. And that usually does not involve breeding two dogs just because you have one of each sex in your house. The best stud for a particular girl is seldom found in your own house.....especially not when you are just starting out. You want to breed the best to the best in the hopes of producing the best. Do not choose a stud due to its location, choose him because he can best compliment the flaws of your girl, because he has produced champion pups with solid temperments and health. Also, you mention going to shows, but you don't say you will finish your girls championship before she is bred. If you're not breeding champion quality to champion quality....you are just producing pets.....and while there is nothing wrong with pets (my girls are members of the family first and foremost) there are enough pet quality dogs that need homes without you contributing to more. The good news is that you are young and have plenty of time to garner the information you need to become a good breeder......if you listen to advice that is.

Later,
Trinity

[Guest Anonymous]

I think that you could someday be a good breeder but right now you do have some wrong ideas. First you need to wait and make sure the bitch you are buying is good enough to be bred this means you won't know untill she is fully mature. Also consider her bloodline does it have ch.'s in the first three generations preferably her sire and dam.If your male has skin conditions than NO he should not be bred as that condition could be passed on to the puppies. If you do decide to breed her find a reputable breederWith a PROVEN stud dog that has a championship title and has been health screened for whatever genetic problems that your breed may have. This may mean traveling to another state. Also you may want to consider that a lot of reputable people will not breed to an untitled bitch so If I were you I would get her titled and if you can't then there must be a reason.If for any reason the stud owner decides that she is not worth being bred listen to her advice and ask her to explain to you why. Also breeding is not easy and it is not cheap ,if you do not properly care for the mother and the pups they could die and if not you will still have a very hard time selling them. Read some books Lots of books and then decide if breeding is right for you.

[yellowlabsrule]

I voted NO to the poll, because our breeder bred two dog with only fair hips, and we didn't know any better so we bought Winnie who has hip dysplasia (sp?). We could have sent her back, but who would after two years!?!? By the way, I found Winnie's full blood sister (only born a year later) on the internet!!! So exciting! Bad thing is there breeding her :-? but they say she has good hips sooooooooo. Anyway here's the site with her! [url]http://members.tripod.com/jeotto97436/index.htm[/url] Her name is Honey bear under labradors. We might go see her! YEA! Anyway just thought you might enjoy.

[Guest Anonymous]

Hi Yellowlabs,

I was interested to see if Honey Bear's hips were good.....so I looked her up on the OFA database and:
Name Registration #Breed Sex Database Report Final Conclusion
OTTO'S HONEY BEAR SN40192606 LR F HD 04/21/1999 GOOD


Later,
Trinity

[Crested]

I didn't mean that I'm becoming a breeder RIGHT NOW... :D LOL! Naah... I think I'll wait atleast a couple years! ;)
Ok to your questions...

Guest pat:
I didn't just say what others were saying, they were my exact thoughts BEFORE I even posted anything here. I just wanted to see if other people have the same thoughts as I do.

Ben's pedigree on my homepage if you are curious... (oh, and there is allso music on my page.... ;)) He has 9 champions in his 4 generation pedigree. (3 in his 3 generation pedigree) C

[Guest roo]

Just a point on the hairless ones :lol:
I have been told by crested breeders, if you are going to see a
litter of cresteds turn up 1 or 2 days before you are supposed to :wink:
As they will shave them the day you are due :oops:

Also cresteds are known to be timid as babies it is quite common, if you are going to show then continual socialization as young helps.

the other thing to look at is mouths, there really are some awful mouths abd teeth out there :lol:

Roo

[Guest Anonymous]

I voted Yes btw. Both of my breeders were and are very responsible in their breeding choices. 5 years later I still email Lily's breeder once a week....I send her pictures regularly. I was on Val's breeder's waiting list for almost 2 years. 2 years after finally getting Val, her breeder and I talk regularly. She is an invaluable tool in our upcoming breeding decisions. So not only do I have happy, healthy, beautiful dogs....I have good friends who share their experience with me.


Crested, your foundation stock is the most important purchase you will ever make in your life as a breeder. I have to tell you 9 and 10 champions in a 4 generation pedigree would not be good enough for me! For example my Val has exactly 1 dog in her 4 gen pedigree who is NOT a champion (that dog is however the progeny of the 93 Westminster BIS winner and did not finished because she got a front tooth knocked out). That is what you want to start with.... the very best pedigree possible. Is pedigree an indicator of fitness to breed? Well in purchasing a puppy that you hope you will be able to breed, it and health checks are pretty much the only indicators you are going to get. I am sure this will offend you, and for that I am sorry, but I have seen BYB with more champions in their pedigrees than that. You say you want to show but that is not what you want to be remembered for. That is all well and good but what is the breed ring? It is to show case a breeder's breeding program. It is a way to cull dog's who should not be bred, it is way to judge objectively if your breeding program is, "as close to the perfect as possible". So you might not want to be remembered for it, but your performance there will be the indicator others use of your dog's fitness,resemblance to the standard, and your personal success as a breeder. If you start out with breeding stock that is not the best you can find, then your breeding program is going to be off track right from the start. And I am sorry but it sounds like you are making excuses for your boy. OK, so he is allergic to spices, well why does he have these things "dog's aren't even supposed to eat" in his diet in the first place?? And to him being scared when he was a pup, causing fear.....what dog wasn't scared at one point in their life? You want your stud to have a resilient temperament.....something like that sure it is horrible for an 8 week old pup to go through, but in all honesty a dog that couldn't get over it, shouldn't be bred.....and with his pedigree, why even consider it? You buy the best possible bitch you can find and then you send her out to be bred to the possible stud you can find.....or even have semen shipped in. You don't bred to a stud with a poor pedigree, and issues....just because he is in your house, and some breeders have told you he would make a good stud. I know breeders who wanted to breed to my many inches over the standard, high ear set, poor rear angulation, pet quality dog......because they liked the way he looked! Sheesh, there are plenty of breeders out there that do not know their own standard, and just because they are breeders is no reflection of their knowledge quotient. Again, I am sorry if I have offended you in any way, but I am being honest here.

Later,
Trinity

[yellowlabsrule]

Trinity,
how do you look up a dog to see what it's hips are rated? I know how to read a OFA number and know, but does OFA have a website?
Thanks!

[Guest Anonymous]

Yellowlabs,

The OFA's site is [url]http://www.offa.org/[/url] you can go to their search the database page, and type in part or all of the dog's registered name to find their results. If you do not know their registered name, but do know their registration number, you can go to the AKC's online store, click on, "Dog Reports" and use the # to find the registered name. Great tool to check up on people!

Later,
Trinity

[yellowlabsrule]

Thanks much!

[Crested]

Trinity: Actually, I was offended by what you said, because it felt like you want to put a

[Guest Anonymous]

OFA has a registry, but it's been a while since I've been there. I believe you need to have the dog's registered name. I hope Trinity will come back and refresh me.

Trinity, on several dog boards, there have been misinterpretation of the word "cull". To save some nasty posting by people who don't understand the newer version of "cull", can you please explain "culling from your breeding program" Thanks.

[Crested]

Guest pat: I think a "cull" means a litter. Atleast in Sweeden it's "kull" and seems to be very close to "cull". It's just a guess... Everyone wiser then me, speak up... :D

[Bentley's Dad]

cull ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kl)
tr.v. culled, cull

[Guest Anonymous]

Crested,

I find your statement "I don't want to try to improve the breed" very disturbing. To me this is the only reason to be breeding dogs. Otherwise you are saying that they are fine the way they are. If you believe this, and you have nothing to contribute, you will just be breeding more of the same.....which is not a very noteworthy goal for a breeder. From what I have seen of Cresteds they have problems that could do with improving....teeth, allergies, skin problems. Instead of saying to don't want to improve your breed, why not make every effort to stamp out the problems they have in every litter you breed. There is not a breed out there that doesn't have some sort of genetic problems, I myself feel the fault lies with overbreeding, and BYB rather than breeders who are trying to improve the breed. I looked at some kennels in Sweden that are chock full of champions in their pedigrees, with BIS winning sires. So I would venture that there are better pedigree available. You say, "Ben doesn't have a very impressive pedigree"....ok so say you do get the girl you plan on......never and I mean never breed a bitch "down".....find a champion male, with a strong line of progeny you can inspect, with good teeth, sterling temperament, excellent health, and breed her "up" to a stud that will improve the pedigree. You say, "And this message thread was about me wanting to know how to make myself better so that I will be a good breeder" that has been the whole point of everything that I have posted to you. If all you chose to find is offense, rather than honest straightforward advice, I'm sorry. Something every good breeder needs is a thick skin--people give me comments everyday that would offend the heck out of me if I let them. Instead I sort through what they have to say, take advice from people who are more knowledgeable than me, educate where I can, and most of all strive to improve the breed that I love.

Everyone who expressed interest in the OFA database, yes you do need the full name to search.....or if the dog has a kennel name in front of their registered name you can use that and then search through all the dogs that kennel has registered to find the one you are looking for. If there is no kennel name, then you can go to the AKC store page and find the full name using the registration #.

Also, my meaning of "cull from the breeding program", was to spay/neuter the animal, eliminating it from the gene pool. One of the other meanings of cull (to eliminate entirely) is so barbaric it never even entered my mind to be specific.....sorry if there was any confusion.

Later,
Trinity

[Crested]

Sorry about the "I don't want to try to improve the breed" -part... I couldn't find a right word for it... In Finnish it is called "jalostus" or "jalostaa" depending on the phrase. I looked in a very OLD book what is "jalostus" in english and it said it's to improve. Well ok.. In SOME cases it might be that, but in this case it isn't... (I'm Finnish) I'll try to explain what I mean...
See when people have tried to take away faults in for example dogs, they have instead done something else that might be even more dramatic. I think everyone can live with having a dog who has a couple zits or blackheads from time to time (atleast during puberty).
I want to improve the breed yes, but I don't want to do anything drastic. Ben's family has a good set of teeth and so does C

[Guest Anonymous]

Crested,

I understand better what you were trying to say now. I don't feel people such as the ones you indicated are trying to improve their breeds. I think they are breeding for exaggerated effects and do not truly care about the health and well-being of their breeds. I also understand what you mean about not taking criticism, or things that you feel to be critical....because please believe me when I say I was not trying to be critical in any way....only trying to offer what insights I have on breeding. It is hard when you have your mind set in one direction to take advice on the path you have chosen. For example, I am getting ready to breed my girl Val. I had a wonderful Top 10, BISS winning stud (with all the other qualities I mentioned) picked out. He complemented my girl's faults (which are a long topline (IMHO) and lack of substance (not enough bone for my tastes) beautifully and I was very excited. I talked to Val's breeder about this stud and found out that in past combinations between her lines and his all they had done was produce some very nice quality pets. Now this was hard for me to accept, I thought this stud was perfect......surely when bred to MY girl I would get the show champions I am looking for......she made me realize that yes, he is a wonderful stud....just not for my lines. So it was back to the drawing board, because after all she has been breeding this line for over 30 years and knows far more than I. But as you say, it was hard to swallow at the time. If as you say, "I know what you have written will help me in the future", that is all I set out to do.

BTW--those teachers do not deserve their positions and should be given a sound drubbing.

Later,
Trinity
[url]www.geocities.com/trinityess[/url]

[Crested]

Trinity: Thanks. I do know that you just want to help. It just in the beginning felt like everyone is out to judge me. :oops: Silly me...
But I'm glad that everything I was thinking was only my immagination. :D

My top prioirty is to breed healthy and happy dogs. Sure their look counts too, but wich one would anyone choose from: looks or health? I think health is more important then anything and with my first litter (that I hopefully could get in 2

[Hobbit]

[i]Everyone who expressed interest in the OFA database, yes you do need the full name to search.....or if the dog has a kennel name in front of their registered name you can use that and then search through all the dogs that kennel has registered to find the one you are looking for. If there is no kennel name, then you can go to the AKC store page and find the full name using the registration #. [/i]


Trinity -- you don't need the entire name to search the data base. You can put a name in and the data base will "soundex" it, meaning it will display every dog with that name in it (if there aren't 1000's).