BARF, To Be or NOT to Be?

[Guest Anonymous]

Just to let everyone know...I have been sitting behind this computer, and with my nose in books long enough! Atleast for right now.
I found some interesting things, I thought you might all like to check out.
I HAVE OPTED TO NOT BARF FOR THESE REASONS...

1) DR. DONALD R. STROMBECK wrote a book entitled, "HOME PREPARED DOG AND CAT DIETS, A HEALTHY ALTERNATIVE". He is AGAINST RAW MEAT AND BONES.

2) DR. WENDELL O. BELFIELD ([url]www.belfield.com[/url]) He's somewhere in the middle. His site is very educational about dog foods and BARF type diets.

3) Romancing the Bone
Pet Care Expert Cautions AGAINST Raw Food Diets for Dogs.
Lisa S Newman, ND, PhD, Azmira's Director of Research
Lee Veith, DVM, Veterinary Regulatory Board
* This is an article of a STUDY that was done on this type of diet. There were 3 groups of dog's. IT'S REALLY A "MUST READ"! For anyone. The end results were DEVASTATING!

I am just looking to let you know that these are the reasons "I" opted to not participate in any BARF style diet. I hope that in some way, the research I have done may help some of you understand the "RISK" Involved. BEFORE it affects your pet's health. IT WILL! In fact...before I posted this info here...I contacted my Vet. His response to me even bringing the subject up was VERY NEGATIVE! He requested that I bring him any info that I had recieved...I did. His response to soaking the meat in ANY substance was this... " I BET IF YOU SENT THE SUBSTANCE OFF FOR TESTING, IT WOULD COME BACK POSOTIVE FOR ATLEAST ONE HARMFUL BACTERIA." In his opinion..."BONES AND RAW MEAT ARE EXTREMELY DANGEROUS!" So for those of you that do BARF, be absolutely sure you know everything you NEED to know. FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO DON'T..........OR ARE RESEARCHING............CHECK OUT THE THINGS I HAVE LISTED HERE. I WOULD ADVISE AGAINST IT!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest Anonymous]

jcb I was wondering if you read anything positive? Did you question any other vets? When you study or research something it has to be from more than one view point and more than one opinion... kind of an open subject..
People get e coli but not everyone so do you stop eating meat....did you know that in your lifetime you will swallow 10 spiders in your sleep?? so do you stop sleeping??? In a can of vegetables there are numerous bug parts (they allow so many bug parts) so do you stop eating??? Take different opinions into account and look at things from the pro/con side!!!!!! Vets are all different! :wink:

[Carolk9s]

[quote name='Jacsmom']
People get e coli but not everyone so do you stop eating meat....[b]did you know that in your lifetime you will swallow 10 spiders in your sleep[/b]?? so do you stop sleeping??? In a can of vegetables there are numerous bug parts (they allow so many bug parts) so do you stop eating??? :wink:[/quote]

EXCUSE ME???? OH JACSMOM, DIDYA HAVE TO DO THAT? :changes:
Don'tcha know in some ways ignorance REALLY is bliss? EEWW, spiders while I'm sleeping :cry:

[Guest Anonymous]

[color=blue][size=6]Love ya'll[/color][/size] :lol: :lol: :lol:
I knew it would get Sash but did know bout Carol...someone else once stood on the side of a shower.......(memory lapse)

[corgilady]

[quote name='Jacsmom']....did you know that in your lifetime you will swallow 10 spiders in your sleep?? so do you stop sleeping??? [/quote]

:o Well I might after THAT!

[Hobbit]

[quote name='Jacsmom'] In a can of vegetables there are numerous bug parts (they allow so many bug parts) so do you stop eating??? :wink:[/quote]


You just HAAAAD to bring up the can of vegetables, didn't ya?!?

8) Okay, since you DID....I once opened a can of string beans and there, on the top for God and everyone to see, was a Katydid!! :lol:

[corgilady]

[quote name='Hobbit']I once opened a can of string beans and there, on the top for God and everyone to see, was a Katydid!! :lol:[/quote]

So did God stop eating his veggies? :lol:

Ok ok my dad no longer eats the very bottom of an ice cream cone becuz when he was a kid there was a COCKROACH in there! ugh!

[b]Seriously....and back on topic [/b]:wink: ... Romancing the Bone is too general to be taken as research. Strombeck is of course biased and does not address both pov's, just speaks from his side....so that leaves Belfield, who has written numerous articles about healthy diets for pets, and has a graphically detailed article ON HIS WEBSITE ([url]http://www.belfield.com/article3.html[/url]) about the (terrible) ingredients in commercial dogfoods, yet stops short of recommending the BARF diet. I believe he may feel that as a veterinarian, he should not recommend BARF for liability reasons.

I would say the "research" has just begun.

[deepseasnake]

I think you may want to do some looking into the motives of these people, I to have never heard of anything but positives associated with BARF I did alot of reading on it when I first came to this board and found that it was very accepted and makes complete sense.

[quote]..." I BET IF YOU SENT THE SUBSTANCE OFF FOR TESTING, IT WOULD COME BACK POSOTIVE FOR ATLEAST ONE HARMFUL BACTERIA."...[/quote]

I would agree, but before you send it off also include a piece of kibble and your severed right hand and then we'll see whats the most harmfull and I'll bet its probably NOT the disinfected meat! dont underestimate an animals ability to deal with toxins. They and we are quite good at it, we;ve been at it for some time. I'll bet the food wolf packs eat aren't all that clean either nor the aboriganies in South America. "But thats differant" No its not, both are human and Canine the only differance is enviroment.

I gotta go so I'll post more later

[Guest Anonymous]

Let's just take this back to the beginning when all dogs ate was raw meat.. In fact that is what dogs in the wild do... They are pretty healthy....

[Guest Anonymous]

FYI...I did read alot of posotive articles! Alot! I agree that there is some good LOGIC to the BARF program. I also agree that you can't go on what one person says. I DISAGREE with the idea that there's an answer for everything! There's not!
Just a scenario here...I decided to BARF. Which I'm not...but I did. I researched for 2 or 3 years. Because there's more posotive article's than negative, I decided with the support of other's to try this out. A week later, MY DOG IS DEAD! I guess it would be all MY FAULT! No, I don't think so. I think it's wonderful that this has worked well for some of you. The only question I have is this...Did you read the article, " Romancing the Bone"? "...while the raw foods group only recieved a five percent rating. ALSO LOSING A HIGHER NUMBER OF SUBJECT'S OVER THOSE IN THE OTHER TWO GROUPS." What's in some of the dog food's on the market is disgusting...I for one believe that something should be done to change that! I still read this article. Dog food itself may be gross, and may cause health problem's later on. BARF, well it's dangerous now! How do you respond to the idea that your dog may die younger from BARF than from dog food?
You guys may not like this, but I didn't go on what one vet said. I believe there's atleast 3 articles here, and my personal vet. Sorry guys but I will go with the vet's over advocates on this one ANYDAY! Beside's that there's more articles. NO CAN DO! Sorry!

[Guest Anonymous]

My reasoning for this is gonna sound bad...I would LOVE to feed my dogs BARF, but I am not sure I can afford it, and I like the convenience of commerical food....throw it in their bowl and they're good to go! :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

How did they fix the food? Was it fresh meat? Where the dogs in good shape? Did they die because of the diet or other causes?

Vets all have different opinions from food to vaccinations to shampoo to how your dogs poop is suppose to look.... Call some other vets...

[deepseasnake]

I'll tell you something about vets, Yes they are doctors and Yes they can peform all the stuff that we cant. But in the cases that are surrounded in grey (which really this isnt there are very few people against BARF comparatively speaking) I will very rarely listen to a vet.
Did he look into it himself or did he hear what another vet said and just agree because it was advice from a superior. A vet has more things to concentrate on than dog food, and rightfuly so I'd rather my vet not waste his time on food and improve his ability to operate or whatever.

Unless your vet specializes in canine digestive systems, all he knows is "germs are bad" and "a bag from a store is guarenteed" or "I dont have to worry about it and thats okay because my clients dont worry about me and Im okay" a vet is just someone who has been told alot of stuff by someone else just like doctors, I was once told by my doctor the Atkins diet would kill you, then I explained that a proper Atkins diet DID include carbs and he said "Oh well......thats probably fine then" he then got the book and said "this is great". He just didnt know and if he would have told me that, I would have second guessed later decisions he made. So he has to giva an answer no matter what. Most time they just go on a gut insticnt, raw food = germs = BAD
go talk to a canine stomache specialist or canine nutritionist and go to 5 or 6 and see what they have to say

bottom line your dogs your call, but dont go deprive your dogs because a couple "researchers" hired by Iams said BARF isnt profitable for the company, your dogs deserive better than that.
I dont do BARF either I cant afford it right now but when I can I will, I hate feeding my dogs out of the bag its just not right, I feel like I'm feeding them cancer pellets or something but until I can afford it its all I can do right now.

[Guest Anonymous]

OK...so what your saying is this...I should not believe a person whom I have trusted my animal's live's to for years, to go ask a stranger. A stranger I might ad, that I have no idea what they believe? I am open to new idea's I really am. BARF just has too many questions...and not enough logical answer's for me. Newfiemom has some article's. She said she would send them to me. That's cool! I will read them. Open-mindedly! There's just too much risk involved for me. If there were more studies done...if it was more widely known and understood. MAYBE, then I could make a judgement I would feel comfortable with. The only thing I can say is...atleast I know the RISK with "SOME DOG FOODS". I choose not to use those foods. Actually, I do use one of those foods. Something that will be changing. Just not to BARF. I will find a food out there, manufactured with the "BEST" of ingredients. One I will feel comfortable with. One my dog will like, and more importantly will be able to achieve optimum nutrition with.
You guys remember the dog I told you about? The "Mutt" that I got from the local shelter? Well, Buddy was the BEST dog I have ever had. Very loyal, gentle, VERY WELL BEHAVED. You name it...you couldn't have asked for better. Well, I was fixing dinner one night. I had to use the bathroom, I left the kitchen like I'd done a billion times before. This time was different though. Buddy pulled the two boneless steaks off of the counter and ate them. Before I could even get back! At 2:00 the following morn. I awoke to my dog throwing up. In the end, A BACTERIA IN THE MEAT ATE THE LINING OF MY DOG'S STOMACH! He began hemmoraging before I could get him to the emergency clinic. By the time I got there...he had very little life left in him. Blood transfusions...IV's....you name it, we did it. Sent EKG's to NC STATE UNIVERITY to have them checked. The whole nine yards. Now, I know what you are thinking...that's why I am against BARF...and your absolutely RIGHT!
When you guys told me what it was, I was amazed at the faith you put into it. Really, I had to do some research...for my own piece of mind. I did. Unfortunately, I found out for atleast the time being, that I am the one that killed my BEST FRIEND. Sorry, I have 3 wonderful companions now. I wouldn't risk their lives for anything! This may sound terrible but I would "KILL" quicker over my dog's then I would "most" people! That's how important they are to me!

[Guest Anonymous]

By the way (deep...). You and I were discussing the topic of "mutts". Buddy was a "mutt". Yellow lab/retriever mixed with Chesapeake Bay Retriever. When I left the Emergency clinic that morning...my bill was over a 1,000.00! My point to you was this...it shouldn't matter whether the dog's a blue blood or a mutt. They care no less about you, and you should care no less about them. Simple really. I would've spent my last dollar on Buddy. And only paid $40 for him. I got him from the shelter because I wanted to SAVE A LIFE!

[Guest Anonymous]

I am on a list (I say that alot :o ) any way a breeder took his lab to the vet with what is called "cold tail" the vet told him he was crazy.. So he went home got the info on it and dropped it off at the vet's office... About 2 days later the vet called and said for him not to come back!!
:o

[Guest Anonymous]

Sorry (jacsmom), I don't quite understand your point. Is it that not all vets are "good vets"? Very good point...if that's the one your trying to make. A point that I would like to make actually! :wink: Not all dog foods are bad, not all are good. Not all BARF diets are all bad. There is some good logic. I for one want more than logic! Logically, what your saying is true! There's just not enough hard down evidence for me! Judge on the individual, the product, the idea...along with any research that's been done. Good and Bad, then and only then make a decision that is right for you. So, if what you guys want from me is to not generalize. Why are you generalizing? I can be open-minded about all of this. Can you? The only person here that hasn't tried to sway me with words. That has offered to send research is Newfiemom. I just wonder if you guys really know, or if your just relaying information that someone told you. I only ask because none of you other than newfiemom and k have offered to answer any of my questions. You have simply stated your perspective. Not that I am not interested in your perspective. Just that I want more than that. I like to know the facts. I call things as I see them. I am a no nonsense, cut to the chase kind of person. I also, try to remember that just because we think differently, you are as much entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. Here's a quote I heard from my father all the time.." opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one". I don't know what you take from that, but I take that irregaurdless if I like it or not. You still are entitled to your opinion, and I to mine.
I only put this post up because there are bound to be people out there who feed there dog's bones and raw meat, that didn't research, and aren't aware of the risk. That's what this forum is for, right?

[Guest Anonymous]

Thank You Newfiemom. Any info would be nice. I just hope that you understand that I haven't closed my mind to anything. Based on my experience (with Buddy) and the one actual study I have found, I am just not sure this is the way for me to go. I will continue to research. Knowledge is power. That, I believe. Any information you could send would be much appreciated. :lol: I just can't get past the fact that most of the whole diet (BARF) is based on what appears to me to be logic and not facts. It's just real hard for me to get by that. If you have proof otherwise, let me know. :wink: If vet's write books on the pro side, and Vet's write books on the con side of the issue. Who determine's which vet's are credible? It seems that some people are willing to trust vet's they've never met, that agree with them. But, criticize the one's that don't agree. Sorry, just can't seem to figure out what exactly BARF advocates believe. He's (a vet) good enough to potentially save your dog's life, but not good enough to tell you the danger's in something?

[Guest Anonymous]

See newfiemom, that's using your noggin! :lol: You are educated about possible problems newfs face, and are careful to not antagonize the odds! That's impressive! :wink:

[deepseasnake]

well in the order recieved

[quote]By the way (deep...). You and I were discussing the topic of "mutts". Buddy was a "mutt". Yellow lab/retriever mixed with Chesapeake Bay Retriever. When I left the Emergency clinic that morning...my bill was over a 1,000.00! My point to you was this...it shouldn't matter whether the dog's a blue blood or a mutt. They care no less about you, and you should care no less about them. Simple really. I would've spent my last dollar on Buddy. And only paid $40 for him. I got him from the shelter because I wanted to SAVE A LIFE![/quote]

I dont know what disscusion you are reffering to right now, but I must have not stated reality accurately because I have NEVER (until know) owned a "purebred" and the one I have now was an adopt from PAWS and her pup which I kept I have no clue to what his father is. So sorry if I said something wrong but I dont think anyone should do anything but adopt. Mutt or no Mutt a dog is a dog they all need homes.

[quote]if it was more widely known and understood.[/quote]
sounds like you know and have done some looking into it and have made an informed desicion

[quote]on my experience (with Buddy) and [b]the one [/b]actual [b]study[/b] I have found, I am just not sure this is the way for me [/quote]
well now wait, I though you believed that BARF was not widly known and studied, how could you have come to that conclusion after one study?


[quote]just hope that you understand that I haven't closed my mind to anything[/quote]
it sounds to me this was an open and shut case for you you dont sound real "up in the air" right now, which is fine its your choice but from here your looking pretty closed off.


[quote]none of you other than newfiemom and k have offered to answer any of my questions.[/quote]
okay, I was where you are awhile ago and I spent countless nights up reading on both sides of BARF. After so long for me it was a no brainer, but you know what, it was the most grueling research I ever did but I did it, no help, no suggestions. I went out to seek answers to my questions and found them. It's actually why I joined this board I wanted to find a BARFer.
My point is yes, I could go back and find all those articles and books and little nutritionist notes and pages but why, you could just as easily find it for yourself. Don

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

Where's Aroura when you need her? :lol:

[size=6][color=green][b]CALLING AROURA![/b][/color][/size]

[Gordonmom]

jcbrooke, can you tell me what the name of the bacteria was that came from meat and ate your dogs stomach?

I am unaware of any bacteria other than a Helicobacter that can survive a dogs acidic, mucosal stomach long enough to attach, and Helicobacter does not come from raw meat. Organism that cause food poisoning pass through the stomach and imbed in the intestine, which is a more hopitable enviorment, but then you get the bloody stool stuff.

But maybe I am not thinking of something. Can you tell me the bacteria?

[deepseasnake]

HOLY SH!T :o :P

Sherlock, you are the MAN, errr WOMAN it all makes TOTAL sense now....jeez I should have figured that one out :oops:

[Horsefeathers!]

Oh well, why not... I've been in the hotseat before, so I may as well jump back into it. *sigh*

I am one who did have problems with BARF. I followed instructions to the letter, bought the books, read the lists and was diligent in my "decontamination" (anyone wanting to put me on the spot and question this, please read back through similar discussions... I've outlined it before and I'm not going to argue a point... this is just my personal experience). My little allergy dog did wonderfully on it for a few months in that her scratching was reduced (not eliminated). However, she did become gravely ill. I was one who approached my vet about BARF and he, like many, was opposed to it. I do know that vets aren't the greatest nutrition experts out there, so I went ahead with the blessings of many BARFers and my "research." I did do my homework and made what I determined to be an informed decision, right or wrong. My dog became ill and hospitalized. My vet (and personal friend with no stake in deceiving me), doing whatever it is he did, said that my dog had salmonella poisoning. I questioned that then as I argued with him even still that dogs do not get it. I was sure I was right. However, I did some further digging past the BARF sites, looking for something objective. Something that was neither pro nor anti BARF. I found out that, despite many dogs doing so well on it, it is a reality that some dogs DO get sick and some DO get bones lodged in places they ought not. I found plenty of xray photos of dogs with bones lodged. RAW bones, even, and it's not as uncommon as many would like to believe. I have kind of avoided this thread only because I've said all this before and because I know I'm in a minority. What's so weird to me is that I found the avid BARFers to be so adamant. The same people who were once my biggest supporters became bitterly argumentative when I even suggested that perhaps it's not the best thing for ALL dogs. I was ridiculed and a basic outcast. I've never tried to change anyone's mind that has made an informed decision, but sometimes I do get kind of cross when I see so much advertising about BARF as being the perfect diet for ALL dogs and that ANY suggestion that it MIGHT be dangerous (or maybe we can at least agree that it's a calculated risk?) results in ridicule. I just like to see balanced info provided and, to me, strictly sticking to info provided on BARF sites is not objective.

A point of irony... just this week, we had a dog come into the clinic with a bone lodged in his gut. It required surgery. This happens fairly often since so many dogs here in the rural South roam loose and get into garbage. What is surprising is that this person sent her husband home to get a BARF book (sorry, I don't know which one) and adamantly insisted that this was not supposed to happen. It was a RAW chicken wing and not just garbage as is usually the case. What was even more surprising was when my vet told me that this was the third client this year with the same problem from raw bones and a raw diet. I didn't even know and I work there (in grooming, not as a tech, so I'm not often aware of what goes on up front).

I now feed Wellness supplemented with a COOKED diet. From all I've been able to learn, cooking at regular household oven temperatures absolutely does not destroy nutrients. The high temps that many commercial plants use in extrusion is what can destroy nutrients. My ideas on nutrition and dog foods are parallel with Newfiemom's. I have followed everything she has said and it is almost identical in my own beliefs/research regarding canine nutrition. The absolute only thing I do differently is cook the meat instead of leaving it raw.

I'm not even going to get into my beliefs on canines and a high protein diet and the theory that canines are strictly carnivorous.

Anyhoo, I just thought I'd toss that out there. I'm not selling anything and I am so glad that many dogs do great on BARF. I'd never attempt to change someone's mind if they've found something that works for them. I just get nervous when anyone adamantly insists that it is 100% perfectly safe and effective for ALL dogs. I just don't think there is any single magic bullet for EVERY dog.

[Horsefeathers!]

Oh, wait! Someone was advertising something?! So much for me and my soapbox. I just wasted a frickin' hour! :o