Can a dog food be to rich????

[Horsefeathers!]

Exactly, Guest! As far as I've been able to find out, wolves do not live that long in the wild and are not necessarily that healthy. From what I understand, the reason that you don't usually see sickly acting or injured wolves in the wild is because it's a virtual death sentence.... not because it doesn't happen. Weak/sick animals are killed off. I just believe that comparing wolves in the wild to domestic dogs is like comparing apples to oranges.

As far as cooking destroying essential nutrients... if this were true, we'd ALL starve to death since we almost always cook our food. Remember, not too long ago, man ate raw meat, but I don't see many people advocating a raw diet for people using the logic that it's what our ancestors ate.


By the way, if anyone is still with me at this point, I also have information that supports the notion that 80% red meat in a dog's diet IS very harmful. Just in case you think I'm making this stuff up! :P


LOL Aroura, you asked..... :wink:

[Aroura]

Thanks for those links Horsefeathers, I'll check them out.
As for the red meat/chicken meat thing, they only get a red meat bone every second day, and a little liver each day. The rest of the meat is chicken meat, which makes up most of thier diet. I cant cook any of these anyway because they contain bones.
I used to cook for Tessa using the whole carbohydrate vs protein ratio you explained earlier. I'd spend hours in the kitchen cooking, then I would have to wait for it to cool, bag it etc etc and she didn't really like it that much, I admit she did go rather well on it, but I would personally prefer to feed the raw foods. I guess some dogs have a higher tolerance than others, and mine have eaten the grossest things where you can actually see the slimey bactia crawling on it and have never shown any signs of sickness, therefore, I personally see no need to cook the food for my dogs, although I see what you have said proves that it is not neccissarilly good for all dogs. I'll pass the links along to some dedicated BARF users too and see what they have to say... not saying your wrong, just after all oppinions!!!

And guest, you know where you can stick that commercial diet...

[Horsefeathers!]

Aroura, you can cook these with the bones. I'm not saying to give them cooked bones. You just remove the bones when they're done (or prior, if that's easier). I'm talking about just cooking the meat and removing the bones entirely.

Also, I'm not totally anti-bone (here comes another exception to a rule just to make it even more confusing)... I do buy those big ol' butcher soup bones that my guys can't splinter and they gnaw on those and work the marrow out. I do feel that's beneficial. I'm just strongly opposed to things like chicken bones that can splinter, or any small bone.

Whew... so glad this has remained civil. I try to tread lightly, but a lot of people perceive me as being merely argumentative. Thanks for not taking anything as a personal attack. I may disagree with views, but I try hard to be respectful even if I disagree. A lot of people wold be calling me ugly names by now! :roll:

[Aroura]

Horsefeathers, of course it remained civil, I consider you a friend and would NEVER call you names, even if we do disagree!!! :D Also I don't see the point, I am open to your ideas and I'm always willing to learn more, although I'm not open to ideas about commercial food. I've read too much bad stuff about that and it makes me sick to even think of feeding it to my dogs!
I have always fed raw bones. I would be wary maybe about whole chicken carcasses that seem so popular amoungst BARFers, but the necks seem safe enough, the bones aren't hard and splintery and are easily digested.
I must say, you have put up some rather good arguments for what you feed, you havn't converted me but I cant say what you feed isn't very close to the best possible.

[Horsefeathers!]

Oh, and I can tell you exactly what the dedicated BARFers will say. I presented similar information to some of the lists when my girl got sick... just to ask questions and see if I could get sensible answers. Basically, all I got were insults and attacks. When presented with anything that might even remotely conflict with their beliefs, they simply became defensive and the only thing I got out of it was that anyone who's ever had problems obviously did it wrong. That's exactly what they say. It really frustrates me that people get their mind so set on one thing that they refuse to look further. I'm always willing to expand my mind and willing to be wrong in the effort to learn more, so it's so beyond me that others want to be right no matter what instead of learning. At least you are asking questions. That's good. It means you are willing to learn and make up your own mind based on information you gather from ALL sides. Sadly, many are not. They just want to be right.

[Aroura]

My motto is that you can never learn too much!!!
Just read the page on wolves... nothing too conclusive there :) Oh, except about the fur... I would feed whole animals if I could get my hands on them! And one of them say something about soft bones of small animals eg chicken should be fine.
Just about to read the other pages.
Well I'm glad to say, when you give these guys in the other forum a link they will read it and re read it before they jump down your throaght, then they will give objective oppinions and never simply say 'you are wrong'. They are the most knowladgable lot of people I have come across ever I'd say!
I'll let you know what they say!

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Horsefeathers!']Exactly, Guest! As far as I've been able to find out, wolves do not live that long in the wild and are not necessarily that healthy. From what I understand, the reason that you don't usually see sickly acting or injured wolves in the wild is because it's a virtual death sentence.... not because it doesn't happen. Weak/sick animals are killed off. I just believe that comparing wolves in the wild to domestic dogs is like comparing apples to oranges.

As far as cooking destroying essential nutrients... if this were true, we'd ALL starve to death since we almost always cook our food. Remember, not too long ago, man ate raw meat, but I don't see many people advocating a raw diet for people using the logic that it's what our ancestors ate.


By the way, if anyone is still with me at this point, I also have information that supports the notion that 80% red meat in a dog's diet IS very harmful. Just in case you think I'm making this stuff up! :P


LOL Aroura, you asked..... :wink:[/quote]

Red muscle meat alone has LONG been known to be nutritioinally deficient for dogs - why do you think the commercial people add in other things? its not all because they want to provide cheap filling food you know ;-)
I agree there is a world of difference between grocery store commercial foods and other more premium quality commercial foods based on ingredient quality etc PLUS IMO the most important thing in a food is *feeding trials* which prove the food does work to keep dogs healthy from pregnancy and whelping to old age. All the analysis in the world is not the same as knowing healthy litters can be gestated and born to grow to old age on the food.
And a lot of good information on wolves and their health and diseases such as hip displasia came out of skeleton studies on deceased wolves done in Michigan.
Nice to know I'm not the only one who feels that the BARF people do not want to hear anything but loud 'yes' noises from others.
When a breeder proudly tells you "I've fed the BARF diet for the last two years now" and follows it with "I have not had a successful gestation to produce a litter in the last 22 months and none of the breedings done to my studs have taken either" it just makes me more than a little skeptical about how healthy the diet is in that instance.