Guest Anonymous Posted July 14, 2002 Share Posted July 14, 2002 I have seen labrador retrievers with black, golden, and chocolate coats. Are there other coat shades that are specific to pure bred labs? A lady is selling this one pup, but his coat is a few shades darker than golden. She claims the pup is a pure bred, but there are no papers to back that up. We could use your advise. Thanks in advance for your response, Fernando and Ann-Marie Vargas [email][email protected][/email] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 [quote name='Anonymous']I have seen labrador retrievers with black, golden, and chocolate coats. Are there other coat shades that are specific to pure bred labs? A lady is selling this one pup, but his coat is a few shades darker than golden. She claims the pup is a pure bred, but there are no papers to back that up. We could use your advise. Thanks in advance for your response, Fernando and Ann-Marie Vargas [email][email protected][/email][/quote] If its a nice tempered pup and the parents are both nice pleasant and healthy seeming pets and you are not really worried about the potential for hip displasia etc then why worry about the purity of the dog - with no papers its not breeding potential or show material anyway so if its a pleasant pup and not a very high price (you should really pay no more than the local shelter would charge you for a paperless pup) why not take it on, get it fixed, train it and love it? I have heard of 'fox red' labs but I am highly suspicious of just where that red factor came into the breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 There are 3 colors that Labs are registered under but several color variations under those 3... *Black *Chocolate..Silver (which is a much heated and debated topic amongst breeders and people as to where this color originated from) *Yellow..several shades of yellow from a light almost white to a darker yellow..Fox Red.. I would be sure that this puppy is healthy and has good temperment. I would ask to see parents and see their temperments as well. Ask if they have had any health problems such as hip dysplasia or etc.. :wink: Guest here is a genetics site on lab coat color... [url]http://labbies.com/genetics2.htm#Genes[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 [quote name='Jacsmom']There are 3 colors that Labs are registered under but several color variations under those 3... *Black *Chocolate..Silver (which is a much heated and debated topic amongst breeders and people as to where this color originated from) *Yellow..several shades of yellow from a light almost white to a darker yellow..Fox Red.. I would be sure that this puppy is healthy and has good temperment. I would ask to see parents and see their temperments as well. Ask if they have had any health problems such as hip dysplasia or etc.. :wink: Guest here is a genetics site on lab coat color... [url]http://labbies.com/genetics2.htm#Genes[/url][/quote] Thanks - but I do understand the color genetics - I also understand its really easy to get new colors when one adds in a different breed unbeknownst to anyone until funny things show up a bit later down the genetic road :wink: at which point a 'scientific' reason is developed for the surprising new color :wink: I didn't see anywhere where the site mentioned the brindle labradors that result from the B gene mutating. Its a fairly well documented mutation that has occured in even the best of kennels on occasion. One of those keep it quiet things :wink: I've seen 'blue' labs too - but interestingly they always seem to have connection in the past where weimeraners could be found nearby... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 Yeah it is interesting the way things work out... Also there is something on that site on the brindling of Labs involving the B... "....random somatic chromosome mutation involving the E or B loci." That is just one I pulled up. One thing I find interesting about the "blue or silvers" is that Yellows at a point in time(early 1900's) did not have a correct undercoat and looked 'houndy' so they were crossed with a Norweign Elkhound. Has anyone thought that maybe this was were the silver came from? I am just curious.. I will try to find the link I read that for you.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 [quote name='Jacsmom']Yeah it is interesting the way things work out... Also there is something on that site on the brindling of Labs involving the B... "....random somatic chromosome mutation involving the E or B loci." That is just one I pulled up. One thing I find interesting about the "blue or silvers" is that Yellows at a point in time(early 1900's) did not have a correct undercoat and looked 'houndy' so they were crossed with a Norweign Elkhound. Has anyone thought that maybe this was were the silver came from? I am just curious.. I will try to find the link I read that for you..[/quote] You might like the book Breeding Better Dogs by Dr Carmen Battaglia - it was at his seminar I saw photos of the brindled labs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 I saw just the one on the site I listed. I have not seen anymore.. I will have to look into that book! Thanks! :wink: Here is the link on the cross I referred to: The book it mentions is by Mary-Roslin Williams..All About Labradors [url]http://www.labbies.com/silver.htm[/url] Whether or not it is true I am not to say. I prefer the 3 basics. If I wanted Gray or Silver I would get a Weimeraner! I was just wanting to point out that this could be a possibility ya know!?!?!![/i] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 [quote name='Jacsmom']I saw just the one on the site I listed. I have not seen anymore.. I will have to look into that book! Thanks! :wink: Here is the link on the cross I referred to: The book it mentions is by Mary-Roslin Williams..All About Labradors [url]http://www.labbies.com/silver.htm[/url] Whether or not it is true I am not to say. I prefer the 3 basics. If I wanted Gray or Silver I would get a Weimeraner! I was just wanting to point out that this could be a possibility ya know!?!?!![/i][/quote] If they really crossed that in I would expect Agouti pattern to spread through the breed presuming the resulting dogs were widely used. :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 [i]The Function of the E Locus and the A Locus in the Labrador Retriever The E gene locus in Labs determines whether the dog will be black/brown (eumelanin) or red/yellow (phaeomelanin). This locus encodes the melanocyte stimulating hormone receptor (a.k.a. the melanocortin 1 receptor; Mc1r). Labs that are homozygous for the dominant E allele have a constitutively active, mutant form of Mc1r; that is, the receptor is always "turned-on", even in the absence of melanocyte stimulating hormone (MSH). As such, eumelanin is constantly produced and the dog appears black or chocolate. Labs that are homozygous for the recessive "e" allele also have a mutant form of Mc1r. This mutant, however, is a "loss of function" receptor that cannot produce eumelanin, even in the presence of MSH. Therefore, Labs that are homozygous for the "e" allele can only produce phaeomelanin and, therefore, will appear yellow. In some other breeds, the Agouti locus is responsible for determining yellow color. Some of the recessive agouti alleles produce molecules that inhibit the activation of Mc1r by interfering with binding of MSH to the receptor. In these dogs, Mc1r is a normal receptor type (called wild-type; E+); that is, it will only produce eumelanin when activated by MSH and will only produce phaeomelanin when the receptor is inhibited. As such, these breeds often display a combination of black as well as tan (yellow) coloring resulting from production of both eumelanin and phaeomelanin. The Agouti genes are often ignored in the Labrador with most writers stating that all Labs are As at the agouti locus. This information is based solely on the observation that agouti will cause both black and tan banding of the hair shaft and since the black banding is not present in Labs, Labs must be As (the allele that encodes the agouti suppressor). This argument, however, fails to take into consideration the presence of the mutant "loss of function" receptor in yellow Labs compared to these other breeds. The Mc1r in yellow Labs is unable to produce eumelanin pigment under any circumstances. Instead, the effects of the recessive Agouti alleles in yellow Labs cause banding of phaeomelanin pigment in the hair shafts and as a result, provides the shading effects observed in yellow Labs. Conversely, agouti has no effect on the black/chocolate Lab because Mc1r is always turned on in black/chocolate Labradors, even in the absence of MSH. Therefore, the recessive Agouti alleles will have no effect on the black/chocolate coloration. It is for this reason that one only observes the effects of the Agouti alleles in the yellow Labrador. If the yellow Lab carries the dominant Agouti supressor gene, As, phaeomelanin production will be inhibited, and since eumelanin cannot be made, the dog will appear very pale yellow (nearly white). In contrast, ay or as agouti will inhibit MSH from binding to the receptor and phaeomelanin production will increase. [/i] This is from B/b, E/e and Beyond-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2B-ornut-2B Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 I am a labrador breeder and I have charcoal and silver coats on my labradors. I do not know what happened so many years ago as I wasn't there and neither were any of you. However, I have entered into my kennel business with labradors who have these coat colors as well as with labradors that have the "traditional" black, yellow and chocolate (if you can in good conscience call yellow and chocolate traditional). They have the same behavior, temperment and drive that the others here do. I do not have dogs with skinny bodies and huge elephant ears. Posting for the first time here I do not know how to add a pic or I would. Mom and Dad are labs, as are grandparents and great grandparents etc. I do know that there is now a dilute red labrador as well and what I do not get is if the labrador retriever was blended with the chessie and others in the past then they are already all half breeds so to speak. [URL]http://www.labradornet.com/typecast.html[/URL] It seems to me that the statements you guys have made seem to say "here was a genetically pure breed and you guys screwed it up," without acknowledging that the labrador is already muddied with other breeds as are many other purebreed AKC registered show champion and field trial champion dogs. The yellows and chocolates came in from somewhere and weren't accepted at that time, don't tell me you believe that out of nowhere a chocolate or yellow was produced from two totally pure black labrador lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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