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imported_Matty

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Everything posted by imported_Matty

  1. [quote]I'm sorry, but all your posts along these lines sound like sloppy, choppy, regurgiations of Cassie's numerous "purebred mongrel" posts. Those arguments certainly have valid basis, but they shouldn't be taken to extremes. You've said "What do you call a mixture of a German Pinscher, Rottweiler, Manchester Terrier and Greyhound = a Doberman Pinscher" so [/quote] Those posts by Cassie, Courtnek and another poster here are what got me interested in reading on this subject. I never even thought of it before, I just thought the same way you did. I am just concerned about dogs I am not saying I really know what Im talking about I just did some reading by experts in the feild of genetics. Purebred dog breeders (most) have not done years of studies on genetics. The websites I am reading have done a lot of study on genetics. If your interested you can read this website. It will be interesting in the years ahead to see what happens with dog breeding. [url]http://www.netpets.com/dogs/reference/genetics/bragg.html[/url] BTW Mutts4me, don't get so upset. We all don't know every thing about dogs, I am just showing a different way of looking at purebred breeding. Are you mad at me for bringing this topic up and discussing it because it goes against your ideals of what a proper dog is. Or is it the way I am broaching the subject? If it's the way I am bringing it up then I do apologize :D :wink: I guess we all have different ideas, and its good to see it from all view points. I just have a different point of view lately. :wink: [quote]but all your posts along these lines sound like sloppy, choppy, regurgiations of Cassie's numerous "purebred mongrel" posts[/quote] This part really bugs me! :evil: are you making fun of my english writing skills :evil: this part of your post personally degrades me as a person. I really got upset and hurt when I read this. Sloppy and Choppy :( That is a personal attack against my ability to write. These are taken from Dogo rules. [quote]1) Please respect every opinion that is posted. It may not be your opinion, but we all have the right to express how we think. Unless, it deals with abuse in any way towards dogs - abusive suggestions and/or opinions are not wanted here. 2) NO profanity or name calling or inappropriate remarks this includes racial slurs. Slight swearing in the case of emotive subjects may be overlooked (and words will appear with *** due to Board programming) - this is a "family type" community and we don't want to offend any one. 3)Flaming/Flame Wars will not be tolerated. Flaming is reacting to someone's message board posting in a hostile manner by publicly chastising the person or bombarding the person with nasty e-mails/PM's Flaming may occur to users who ask stupid questions or who engage in behavior that violates what is considered proper online netiquette. A flame war occurs when two or more users flame each other in an escalating manner that threatens to continue unabated. Respect other peoples privacy. 4) Do not post a personal message from another member without their permission. This is an invasion of privacy and we will delete any message that does not say you have permission to post it. 5) [b]We don't have spell check in this group and we have not assigned anyone to the task. Insulting another member because of spelling or grammar is not going to be allowed[/b]. We have members that translate into English as best they can. We also have children/young adults here who are still learning how to spell. Be considerate of this. It would be a shame to lose a member because they don't feel they can live up to your standards [/quote]
  2. [quote]Not every breeder line breeds and in breeds..... I'm sure you can't speak for everyone[/quote] Debbie, you do realize that in order to create a purebred you HAVE to inbred to create the look and conformation. All breeders especially the suppossed best breeders line breed. Purebred dogs have limited amount of genes cause there are only limited amount of dogs used to create a purebred dog. Think about it this way, if I want to create a purebred Lab/Shep. I would take a few bitches and males and breed them for a few generations til I get the look I want. Then the kennel clubs recognize it as a breed. So, then you have thousands of these Lab/Shep mixes out there and they become popular. So, then you have what looks like a large gene pool but only a few founder dogs. To create a purebred dog you have to inbred and line breed, there is no other way Debbie. This is what makes them so unhealthy and just plan wrong. Purebred dogs are not races, nor are they types, they are just man made from a few founder dogs taken from the mass population of mongrel dogs. Sad isnt it? and this is what people are supporting. Put it this way, if I found out that a dog has champion conformation lines I would be running,not walking away from the sale. I would be wiser to pay the same amount for a mixed breed and possibly have less problems. :wink: Here read this article, it makes a lot more sense than what I am having a hard time saying. It will explain to you what a purebred dog is and why its so unhealthy for dogs as a population. :wink: I am not putting down dogs I am just a concerned dog lover and I fear for the life of our dogs what purebred breeders are doing to them. Its a real horror story, far far worse than any doodle breeding you can imagine. [url]http://seppalasleddogs.com/documents/pbdb21c.htm[/url]
  3. Neat picture pwrpufgirlz. Yes, horses developed naturally to their environment Arabians developed to their environment that has nothing to do with man manipulating the horse and trying to breed for a dished in face. That is natural selection and has nothing to do with purebred breeding. An Arabian horse is more a race or type of horse rather than a purebred. Nothing like our purebred dogs. And yeah I do ride on the trail a lot and most the horse people I talk to usually breed their quarter horses to other types of horses. Horses are not bred as poorly as purebred dogs are and horse breeders would be mortified if any one tried to breed horses the way they do dogs. As far as Thoughbreds and Standard breds I think they are just plan high strung. Just my opinion, as I said before I aint no expert Im just telling it as I reads it :lol: [quote]I wasn't talking about horse breeders though, I'm talking terrain and natural environments creating numerous characteristics among different horses, like arabians with dished in faces, small figures, raised tails, all made for speed and endurance while living in the wild in the desert. Or the connemara pony of Ireland living in the marshlands, shetland ponies of scotland, etc etc. [/quote] Exactly the way dogs were produced. They are called mongrels or races of dogs. Different types of dogs adapted to their "environment". They were spitz types in the north, kinda houndish in the warm climates, large and mastiffy in the high terrain, and some what a sheep dogish in the mountain terrain. Thats how dogs evolved just the same as horses to blend in with their environment and be healthy. Then man comes along and takes a small population of these natural breeds and starts inbreeding to make their so called perfect purebred dogs. Horse breeding is in no way as horrible as dog breeding is. Dog breeding is for physical beauty, when you start just breeding for that then you are making horrible genetic problems. Horse breeders usually are breeding for good working animals etc. Do you see the difference??? doesnt it make a lot of sense? [quote]That's why my Lab/Rott goes to the Vet more than my pure bred Jacks....... That's why she's plagued with allergies and ear infections. That's why I spend the big money on Prescription food for her and monthly grooming to make sure her ears are throughly cl [/quote] Debbie, purebredreeding has caused these problems in the first place. I think almost every purebred dog owner I talk to goes through major genetic health problems. Even my vet says he thinks purebreds are just a big genetic mess. There are purebred mongrels which there are some out there but not so much in North america, youd have a perfect dog.. Its so sad that purebred breeding started all these problems and they are infecting other dogs :( If a purebred dog has genetic problems you can't just dilute the problem by crossbreeding. The problem is going to leak out the the whole genetic pool of dogs. Kinda sad that purebred breeders are doing this horrible thing :( Any way, as I said before, I am not an expert on genetics but I have been doing a lot of reading. To me it makes total sense that purebred breeding is just wrong, especially the way purebred dog breeders go about it. There are much more healthy ways to keep the look and type of your breed by outcrossing than inbreeding and line breeding. Thats all my take on it. Thanks pwrpufgirlz for your knowledge of horses, I find it very interesting. Its neat when you think about healthy natural horse breeding compared to unnatural unhealthy dog purebred breeding Thats all Im going to say about this and sorry every one for taking this out of context. I guess reading up on this subject has opened my eyes and freaked me out quite a bit :lol: Its scary that at one time I thought purebred dogs were right, boy have I changed my mind on that one :wink:
  4. [quote]I doubt sincerely these people have been breeding these dogs like the ones in the ads for generations....these are OOPSIE breedings and they're making them sound good for big $$$$.[/quote] I think that to improve the quality of purebreds breeder should be out breeding like these. Inbreeding dogs is just wrong, and thats how purebreds were created. [quote]And #2 how do you know these mutts are healthier than pure bred dogs ?? You know nothing about the dogs in these ads that were bred.[/quote] I never said these dogs were healtier debbie. But, the chances of them being healthier is far greater than a purebred dog. Remember purebred breeding is what created all the genetic diseases in the first place. Inbreeding in my book is just bad genetics...very very bad. [quote]I know more about this topic with horses, but I'm sure that it goes for dogs [/quote]too pwrpufgirlz, Im not too keen on purebred horses either. I certainly wouldn;t take most purebred horses on a trail. Give me a grade horse any day :D plus, in horse breeding your not really taking the horse too far out of its natural conformation. I don;t see any pushed in faces, short legs, hairless. But, who knows if purebred breeders have their way we will have short legged hairless horses :(
  5. With all the dogs at the local pound I wouldn't pay any thing more than an adoption fee for any dog. To me a dog is a dog is a dog...love them all. :D :wink: I just would never pay big money for a dog...ever. Some people will and to each his own. If they want to fork over 1500.00 for a purebred compared to paying 800.00 for a more genetically versatile dog. I would say the person forking over the bucks for the cross breed is smarter. :wink: Just to add, I don't know much about genetics. But, Ive read enough sceintific studies to realize that purebred breeding is not genetically healthy. :D
  6. [quote]Well since people are just tossing dogs together and creating breeds does that mean my new mutt is really a breed. I figured he was mutt, being husky and lab cross[/quote] First youd have to inbreed the dog for a few generations, make sure its genetically unhealthy. Then you can call it a purebred :wink: All purebreds are are descendants of mongrels, or some purebreds are the direct result of crossbreeding and then inbreeding programs. So, yes, you can create your own purebred from a mixed breed dog after a few generations. What do you call a mixture of a German Pinscher, Rottweiler, Manchester Terrier and Greyhound = a Doberman Pinscher.
  7. They would look pretty neat! :D Its great to see some people creating larger gene pools for dogs. Hopefully purebred breeders will catch on pretty soon and stop inbreeding our poor pouches :( [quote]SHALAPA-POO's [/quote] I don't know what that is? :lol: Im interested in the first person on the board to let us know :lol:
  8. Very interesting. I read some where on a previous long ago post that some attacks to children (and mauling deaths) can be directly linked to predatory drift and really nice dogs some times perceiving children (running & screaming) and fearful humans as prey objects. I can't remember exactly how it was put, but, this poster said that some times a normally great family dog can go into predatory drift (kinda misdirected) to an activity that maybe the dog hasnt been properly exposed to. Or, some times when owners with small children mistake their high predatory dog's eye stalking and chasing as just play, some times it can lead to being more than play and can lead to a full out attack mainly towards children. Possibly in the dogs mind its just predatory play, but with the wrong breed and with a breed with too high a predatory drive it can lead to a dangerous situation, even with well obedeince trained dogs. I think that the training that you are comtemplating sounds like it will create a safer dog. Its great to learn more about drives etc and how to direct them properly and control them. I think a dangerous dog is a breed that has a high prey drive and belongs to an owner who doesnt understand the drives their breed has. To control and direct the drives wisely is a controlled safe dog. :wink: Thank you for sharing your knowledge. :wink:
  9. jweissg, very interesting post. I don't know much about protection training and nil about schutzhund training. But, you sound like you know what your doing and what you said about calling your dog off and knowing when a situation is no longer a threat sounds really interesting. I know some dogs have a high predatory drive and some times when a dog goes into predatory drift that dog can be VERY dangerous. Does schutzhund training teach the dog to control its high predatory drive and to use it in a controlled athmosphere? I think that would be great to rein in a high drive dog breed and teach it controlled predotory drive. As you can determine, I don't know much about prey drives but Im really interesting in learning. :wink:
  10. Have you guys ever tried Astragulas? I use this supplement and have not been sick with a cold or flu for years. Unlike Echinechea you can take Astragulas daily. I highly recommend it, and its cheap and can be bought at any place that sells herbs and vitamins. I get mine from Herbal Select.
  11. I think a damp cloth or a hounds glove works great on short coated dogs. Also those shedding blades are great to use. If your concerned that it may be a medical issue then get a blood test done on your dog just to rule out Thyroid problems etc. It might ease your mind just to be sure. :wink:
  12. Maybe this site can help? [url]http://www.homevet.com/petcare/index.html[/url]
  13. Ive read that you can grow grass for your dogs to eat like wheat grass and alfalfa is good to give dogs too. As for upset belly's and diarrhea etc. I give my dogs dandelion root. I also read some where that licorice root is good to give for stomach upset. Dandelion root and Leaf; the leaf is used for enhancing bile secretion and decreasing water retention and bloating accompanied by flatulence and appetite loss. Roots are used for indigestion, as a diuretic, to promote bile secretion and to treat rheumatism.
  14. [url]http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1624&articleid=920[/url]
  15. Yep, and just remember the most fertile time for a female dog is AFTER she finished bleeding. After the finish bleeding keep her away from males for about 2 weeks. So, from now keep her away from males for 3 weeks. I know this is common sense but its amazing how many people think its OK once the dog stop bleeding, thats just the beginning of the fertile time :D :wink:
  16. This is a paragraph from one of the websites I linked for all to view. I thought this was very straightforward and sums it up nicely. By the way CKC stands for the Canadian Kennel Club in this website. [quote]Population geneticists insist that limited populations under strong artificial selection, subjected to high levels of incest breeding - such as our own CKC purebreds -- simply cannot maintain genetic viability and vigor in the long term without the periodic introduction of new and unrelated genetic material. They are referring, moreover, to true outcrossing, the introduction of stock unrelated to the breeding line, not merely the use of a dog which might be from someone else's kennel but is derived from exactly the same foundation stock some generations back. [/quote] So basically if your breeding Doberman's then you should throw a good genetically sound Rottweiler, greyhound, manchester terrier and what ever else was used to make the Dobe. Purebred breeders should be cross breeding often to make the gene pool larger. What do you think :question: :niewiem: :confused1:
  17. OK :wink: didn't really think it was a debate. Its just stating facts :wink:
  18. [quote]Maybe we should really call "purebreds" ... "inbreds"? (ducking in fear now )[/quote] desertlady, Exactly! the name pure gives a person a reason to think that these dog breeds have been around for thousands of years and that some how man is perserving the breed :roll: Purebreds should be called Inbreds because all purebred dogs were created by man by inbreeding to set behavior and conformation standards. You shouldn't feel as though you have to duck in fear :lol: This is an open forum and we are discussing things that concern us. We are discussing dogs, and we as dog lovers are concerned about the wellbeing and health of our animals. When you find out that purebred breeding is killing them then yes, we should discuss it :wink: especially when so many people tell us and jam it down our throats that purebred breeding is healthy, now we find out that its not healthy at all. Experts in the feild of genetics are warning purebred breeders about opening up their stud books and cross breed to impove the breeds. When you think a reputable breeder is usually just someone who takes an interest in a dog breed, goes to shows gets a mentor (who learned the same way). Then they get a puppy, get advise from another breeder who doesnt really have much of a clue about genetics then they breed dogs They then show them in a conformation show which we all know that you can't tell a dog is healthy just by going to a show. Then the dog that wins the shows is the one they breed cause that dog is the most talked about champion. This is even worse for dogs and its a scary and deadly way to get weak genetics and make genetic diseases. The scary part is they label these people as reputable breeders :o yikes thats scary. I can understand people labeling them responsible breeders cause yes they are responsible, they are responsible for Hip Dysplasia, Elbow dysplasia, luxating patellas and all those other wonderful genetic diseases. Purebred dogs don't fit right together anymore, they are literally falling apart. :(
  19. I don't want people to attack me like I have seen others attacked for trying to discuss this very same topic. So, if your purebred sensitive, don't read this post :lol: [url]http://www.canine-genetics.com/Price.htm[/url] [url]http://www.canine-genetics.com/Price.htm[/url] [url]http://www.angelfire.com/biz4/MastiffBreeder/cul-de-sac.html[/url] These sites really made me stop and think about the harm purebred breeding is doing to our dogs. :o To think that they are pulling the wool over our eyes by saying they are checking for genetic diseases in purebreds and they are creating the diseases in the first place :o talk about people pulling the wool over our eyes. I was surprised after reading this that a person who breeds those doodle breeds and other crosses is really doing dogs a favor. I feel like Im on that band wagon where other people look at disdain at :lol: it kinda makes me think about how people who first started talking about raw diets and BARF where made to feel like idiots by the so called experts. I also want to note that I am not looking for an argument. I just wanted people to read these and make up their own minds and really read what is going on. Next time I hear a breeder saying they are bettering a breed, I will roll my eyes cause now I know better.
  20. pyrless, heres the book and how to order it. Its really good reading. I found it kinda hard to understand and had to reread some chapters. It talks a lot about genetics as well. :wink: [url]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684855305/ref%3Dnosim/yourpurebredpupp/103-0992005-6320600[/url]
  21. pyrless, I just started reading the book. It really is interesting. And those village dogs, they are so neat. They talk of them a lot in the book called "Dogs" by Raymond Coppinger. They studied these dogs in villages and learned that they live a lot longer than our purebreds. They also don't have all the high enhanced drives that our purebreds have. They are low key dogs that just blend in and evolved to not have a high prey drive. A lot of them when you look at their pic's look like Pits, some look like Fox hound type dogs and from regions like up north they look like Husky or spitz type dogs. Just depending on the region they come from they formed their looks naturally to suit it. Like Mastiff type dogs, grey houndish type dogs etc. Its really interesting when you read up on them. :wink: Thanks for understanding what I am talking about :D :wink: some times I get so excited about a website or book I read I don't explain it well. Or I misinterpit what I mean. :wink:
  22. Kat, No it doesnt really matter what they are called. :wink: I think what matters to some people is that people who are into purebred's almost make it sound like all dogs were orginally purebreds and every thing thats not a purebred is a mix of purebreds. I think that its interesting to actually learn more about dogs and to realize that purebreds are really poorly named :lol: they shouldn't have "pure" in front of the name breed. It makes it sound like they are a pure species and created by mother nature which their not. I think its kinda of a deceiving name. :lol: I think their just trying to point out that nature creates her own purebred animals and man just can't seem to do it without starting all kinds of horrible problems. I think its also for people not to look at purebreds as if they are like a pure animal that has been around for thousands of years. Cause people really think like that, honestly I have talked to some people who seem to have this big history of how their breed has been around since time began. What they are actually seeing in those pictures are mongrels or just village dogs (currs) that developed without man. It's just kinda interesting to see how wonderful of a job mother nature does on making her creations. It makes man look kinda silly in comparison when he created his purebreds :D I'm still trying to get through this book. Its really quite a complex book and I have a hard time understanding the genetic parts of the book and the talk of motor patterns and man made created enhanced behavior patterns. Its quite a book. I'll let you know in a year or two when I finish reading it :lol:
  23. [quote]i think that for people like us on the board that is accurate because we have more than a passing interest in dogs and their behavior. however for joe average dog owner who goes to the pound i don't think there is anything wrong with saying "shepherd/husky" or whatever if the physical characteristics and behavior of the dog seem to indicate that. why confuse the issue? people by nature like to label things and will tend to simplify things. as long as they treat the dog well and accept its unpredictable characteristics, what difference does it really make, except to the shepherd and husky fanciers who might know better?[/quote] [b]Quote by pyrless[/b] I think what they and kendalyn are trying to say that some mixed breeds are not really mixes of purebreds. Some mixed breeds are older than purebreds and may not have any purebred in them at all. Although they may resemble some of our current purebreds they are far older than purebred dogs. :wink: So although a dog may look like a pit mix or look like a husky mix or what ever. It may actually never have had a purebred in it at all. I think this is what they are saying and by saying this they are proving they are more dog fanciers than any one who thinks that all dogs had to come from modern day purebreds. Make sense? :lol: Really read this part over. [quote]ONE-MINUTE HISTORY LESSON [b]It isn't as though the first dogs started out as fancy purebreds and everything that isn't pure is some degenerate form of these purebreds. [/b] On the contrary. The first dogs were what we might call original village dogs. They roamed the edges of early villages and reproduced randomly. The purebreds that came along much later (mostly in the 1800s) were developed from these village dogs. [b]But the original dogs have gone right along reproducing themselves, as well, and we still see the results of their random breedings today.[/b] [b]So unless you know FOR SURE that a puppy had purebred parents, trying to guess "what breeds are in him" may be a waste of time. Because the truth may be, "No breeds at all. He comes from a long line of original village dogs." [/b] In other words, his parents and grandparents and great-grandparents may have been totally random mixtures of plain old CANINE genes -- not the more limited subset of PUREBRED genes. [/quote] I saw this book as suggested reading on this site. I bought it, still reading it :lol: and it is finally dawning on me that not all dogs come from purebred breeding programs. Just because you see a mongrel running around don't assume it may have had any purebred dogs in it at all. Remember, Mongrels are far older than any purebred you see around today. kendalyn & Courtnek, you guys make a lot of sense. I am still trying to comprehend all this stuff and open my eyes :lol: I have been so programmed that all dogs come from purebreds that its hard to digest at first. When you really get thinking about all this stuff it really opens your eyes. I just started reading on this, before I always just listened to what every one else said. :lol:
  24. Here's another site I found yesterday when I was bored :D Its simular to the other site but more indepth. [url]http://seppalasleddogs.com/documents/pbdb21c.htm[/url] Enjoy :wink:
  25. I read in a whole dog journal issue about cancer. There was an article about feed the dog starve the cancer. Feed fresh organic raw meats, sardines with lots of omega 3 fatty acids. Lower the carb's, higher protein. I'll get the article for you.
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